BBC boat kill-cord program on TONIGHT

[kerny]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Haha.....:-)

It's true ... true I tell yer Jambo will back me up

[PGIC]

About visiting with MAIB

Originally Posted by Poly

Gary - they are only required to respond to written freedom of information requests (including email) but not "chat" or phonecalls. You may also be aware that all deaths, including the cause of death are registered on a central database (actually there are separate registers in Scotland (and Wales and NI?)). The cause of death MAY not actually state propellor strike - but it would probably list "boating accident". I think when you see how few people die from boating then you might realise that there are bigger fish to fry.

I have already made some inquiries at MAIB and was already aware of some of the other databases.

As to "how few people die boating" we can all have an opinion since UK data does not seem to be available, US data is incomplete, and worldwide data is not available.

Plus as seen in the pyramid graphic produced earlier by another Ribnet contributor, deaths are only the tip of the iceberg. For every death there are probably many serious injuries. In the propeller safety realm in which I operate, many of those injuries are life changing debilitations. And as this group has argued, many of those accidents are preventable. In my opinion, that is a fish worth frying.

gary

[Poly]

Originally Posted by PGIC

As to "how few people die boating" we can all have an opinion since UK data does not seem to be available,

took me less than 5 minutes to find this:

Deaths in England and Wales (thats 90% of the UK) from:
Water transport accidents
2007 - 26
2008 - 29
2009 - 23
2010 - 14
2011 - 18

That is ALL water transport accidents. Common sense tells you that only a small fraction of those are prop related.

It is from here:
Mortality statistics: every cause of death in England and Wales. Full data and visualisation | Society | theguardian.com

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by PGIC

Our mission statement might help clear up your confusion.
Our Mission :: Propeller Guard Information Center

Most of my comments on RIB.net have to do with the first two bullet points.

Make boating safer by:

• Increasing awareness of propeller injuries and their severity
• Increasing awareness of existing propeller injury avoidance devices

As Heddon Johnson mentioned when he was on BBC, he sees the use of kill cords being mandatory at some future time, maybe even after he is gone.

I see a future with fewer severe recreational boat propeller accidents, hopefully before I am gone.

Just as Heddon is trying move things along a little faster toward his vision of compulsary wear, I am somewhat of a facilitator trying to trying to move things along toward my vision a little faster than they would otherwise move.

We have stayed neutral on the topic of compulsary wear of kill cords, but do encourage wearing them whenever possible.

I do encourage the establishment of recreational boating accident databases around the world and efforts to reduce under reporting.

Prop guards and kill cords are just two of the MANY tools that can be used to prevent or mitigate propeller injuries in certain situations. Besides physical devices, those tools also include boating safety education, Public Service Announcements, situational awareness, and behavioral changes.

News coverage of local and high profile accidents is yet one more tool. For example, awareness of the Milligan accident is a major force behind the current kill cord discussion in the UK which is raising awareness of propeller injuries, of the risk of propeller injuries, and of ways such accidents might be prevented in the future.

I hope that clears things up for you.

gary

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Ah, right. So you have a vested interest in promoting the use of prop guards?

Originally Posted by PGIC

About visiting with MAIB



I have already made some inquiries at MAIB and was already aware of some of the other databases.

As to "how few people die boating" we can all have an opinion since UK data does not seem to be available, US data is incomplete, and worldwide data is not available.

Plus as seen in the pyramid graphic produced earlier by another Ribnet contributor, deaths are only the tip of the iceberg. For every death there are probably many serious injuries. In the propeller safety realm in which I operate, many of those injuries are life changing debilitations. And as this group has argued, many of those accidents are preventable. In my opinion, that is a fish worth frying.

gary

So what are you actually proposing Gary, I see lots of words, liberally sprinkled with management speak, but in the words of one of your countrymen "where's the beef"? Give it to us straight, in as few words as possible; what do you want & how do you propose to achieve it? It's no good being woolly & saying you want fewer accidents, better statistics, world peace etc. You say a lot, but at the same time say nowt. I can't help but feel that you have a hidden agenda & the longer you waffle on, the stronger the feeling gets. If you want to preserve any shred of credibility it's time to be straight & stop beating around the bush.
Come on man out with it, what are you selling?

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by Poly

took me less than 5 minutes to find this:
Deaths in England and Wales (thats 90% of the UK) from:
Water transport accidents

I openly admit I am not currently well versed in UK water / medical / death databases. But I know enough from similar databases in the US it usually takes quite a bit of time and study to make sure you are finding exactly what you need.

As per the UK paper we cited a couple times earlier, WAter Incident Database (WAID) is the group making progress on trying to bring these statistics together in the UK. They cite a 2005 study of 1997/98 through 2003/04 hospital stay data that indicates about 2200 people were admitted UK hospitals in that era (over about 6 years) from boating related accidents.

I started to make some wild assumptions from US data to guess some percent of those 2200 hospitalizations that might represent propeller injuries but there are way too many unknowns involved, plus my current unfamiliarity with the UK databases makes it far too easy to make mistakes.

However, back to my original point, while some counts of deaths or hospitalizations is helpful, to really address boating safety issues a database more of the nature of the USCG BARD database that collects many pieces of information and data on each accident is needed. While BARD has its shortcomings, it makes it much easier to identify groups of similar accidents and begin to investigate what types of devices or measures might have prevented or mitigated those accidents than broad death or hospitalization counts.

gary

[SPR]

I know this has been posted before:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...Info-Sheet.pdf

RYA view on prop guards.

S.

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Come on man out with it, what are you selling?

I sell foam and vinyl to prisons to cover weight lifting equipment.
Strength Tech Weightlifting Products

and here is my photo from long ago when i lifted competitively


That is what I sell. I hope that is ok with you. If you would like to buy some, you need to open a prison on this side of the pond because it costs too much to ship it out of the country.

gary

[Nos4r2]

I think what Pikey Dave was asking wasn't the question you answered.

[kerny]

Come on Pikey stick some pics up and show him how you lift mushrooms

[Jeff Hutcheon]

Originally Posted by kerny

Actually I work very hard for my cash Peter

And me!!

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hutcheon

And me!!

They don't understand Jeff, but at least we know. 24 hr shifts, one weekend off in four, I could go on plus I now have to work until the age of 66

[Poly]

Gary,

The UK uses the "International Classification of Diseases" to classify cause of death. I don't know if the US follows international convention, or like so many other areas has defined its own systems. ICD enables cross comparison between countries; on an international basis the number of propellor related deaths clearly hasn't reached the WHO agenda to get its own classification.

You are right not to extrapolate from US to UK statistics. The demographics of boaters, the weather conditions (and therefore tendency for propellors and swimmers to mix) and the power:sail ratio is totally different.

I'd guess 2200 hospital admissions in 6 years makes reasonable sense. That is 300-400 admissions per annum against roughly 15-30 deaths per annum. Given that every head injury or significant hypothermia is likely to get admitted, as will significant hand injuries caused by entrapment in winches then theres not a massive number of unexplained admissions.

I suggest you wait for the MAIB report on the Padstow investigation though. They usually contain a little table highlighting similar incidents they are aware of in recent years and as I said they do seem to hear of most serious incidents.

I'm not suggesting this is not an area for improvement or that we are perfect, but I think there are many other areas of boating safety that might warrant the investment (whether money or time). Google news and the local gossip system now means it is virtually impossible for a local powerboat fatality or serious mutilation story to go unnoticed by RIBnet's several thousand members and I am pleased to say we get relatively few casualties reported and tiny numbers of prop accidents.

Statistics are always dangerous anyway. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow it is irrelevant to ME if I was a 1:100000 chance or less likely to get hit in the UK than Italy. But in terms of nations deciding where to invest limited resources they are a very useful tool.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by PGIC

I openly admit I am not currently well versed in UK water / medical / death databases. But I know enough from similar databases in the US it usually takes quite a bit of time and study to make sure you are finding exactly what you need.

Pretty easy for the death one as it is effectively a tree - you can chuck out 99% of deaths because they are disease related. You just want trauma which they call external. Then you just drill down and you get what Poly gave you. There may be drownings that are coded differntly depending on the mechanism. But I'd be reasonably confident those numbers are about right for UK boating deaths.

As per the UK paper we cited a couple times earlier, WAter Incident Database (WAID) is the group making progress on trying to bring these statistics together in the UK. They cite a 2005 study of 1997/98 through 2003/04 hospital stay data that indicates about 2200 people were admitted UK hospitals in that era (over about 6 years) from boating related accidents.

So that citation is now 8 years old, using HES data that is 15 years old in some cases. Be very cautious of HES data!

You will have someone who had a heart attack while on a boat in that (as you may in death data) alongside someone who fell and broke an arm that needed pinned. On the basis of that data 1 person per day in the UK us admitted to hospital from a boating incident, and based on Poly's data 1 dies every 3 weeks. Certainly doesn't tell you anything about prop strikes though. I'd expect the majority of those deaths are MOB/Sinking and include commercial activity? [Fishing is the riskiest peace time occupation not through Prop Strikes]

[steco1958]

Originally Posted by kerny

Actually I work very hard for my cash Peter

So does my wife !!

it allows me to spend my money on my toys !!

[willk]

Originally Posted by kerny

They don't understand Jeff, but at least we know. 24 hr shifts, one weekend off in four, I could go on plus I now have to work until the age of 66

Long shifts, but on the bright side, it will all be over soon then...

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by PGIC

I sell foam and vinyl to prisons to cover weight lifting equipment.
Strength Tech Weightlifting Products

and here is my photo from long ago when i lifted competitively


That is what I sell. I hope that is ok with you. If you would like to buy some, you need to open a prison on this side of the pond because it costs too much to ship it out of the country.

gary

Oh sorry, I'd assumed that you had a commercial interest in some kind of boat or marine related product

PS give my regards to Bubba