BIBOA [thread split from "the great british rib rally"]

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by G.Mac

I take it this is the website? http://www.greatbritishribrally.co.uk/

I was initially interested untill I saw the are only allowing ribs of 7.5m and above that can go at 30kts

Appears to be a BIBOA event? So much for them not being a scorp owners club with entry rules like that...

[Louise]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Appears to be a BIBOA event? So much for them not being a scorp owners club with entry rules like that...

Entry rules like what? Please explain.

[simonnud]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Appears to be a BIBOA event? So much for them not being a scorp owners club with entry rules like that...

If that is the case then 6.5m would be the min.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Louise

Entry rules like what? Please explain.

This:-

Originally Posted by Rib rally website

Entry Criteria: Entry will be open to RIBs of at least 7.5m capable of cruising at speeds in excess of 30 knots, with a minimum of 2 crew and all entrants will be expected to be members of BIBOA for the event.

Originally Posted by Rib rally website

Scorpion RIBs is supporting the event by paying for the website, the launch, initial PR and secretarial support.

I'm reluctant to quote Biboa people themselves as the conversations were a while ago and I'm not sure I can recall them correctly enough not to cause arguments but the general gist seemed to be that they didn't want to be seen as an elitist Scorp owners club.

[Louise]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

it just seemed to be the opposite to some stated aims which is a tad confusing.

Stated aims of the Rally event or of BIBOA?

There are many makes of 7.5m+ RIBs, all of which would be eligible to enter. I don't see why you think this shows BIBOA to be a Scorpion owners' club?

BIBOA, along with RIB International, are partners in organising the event with Scorpion. AFAIK, the event was conceived by the new MD of Scorpion (who is also a BIBOA member - what good taste he has ). It is natural that he would partner up with BIBOA as BIBOA is the RYA recognised UK authority on RIBs.

As has been mentioned above, the organisers have to draw the line somewhere. There have been endurance events for smaller RIBs in the past and no doubt there will be again in the future.

So how about the whingers stop moaning and instead support what sounds like a great event. For those whose RIBs are not eligible, or who don't own a RIB, you could always offer to crew for someone and split the costs or you could organise your own rally?

P.S. Simonnud - I think I'm right in saying that Scorpion don't make 6.5m RIBs any more, 7.5m is the smallest AFAIK. ;-)

[Louise]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

the general gist seemed to be that they didn't want to be seen as an elitist Scorp owners club.

That's because we're not! When we first joined we didn't even have a boat!

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Louise

Stated aims of the Rally event or of BIBOA?

There are many makes of 7.5m+ RIBs, all of which would be eligible to enter. I don't see why you think this shows BIBOA to be a Scorpion owners' club?

BIBOA, along with RIB International, are partners in organising the event with Scorpion. AFAIK, the event was conceived by the new MD of Scorpion (who is also a BIBOA member - what good taste he has ). It is natural that he would partner up with BIBOA as BIBOA is the RYA recognised UK authority on RIBs.

As has been mentioned above, the organisers have to draw the line somewhere. There have been endurance events for smaller RIBs in the past and no doubt there will be again in the future.

So how about the whingers stop moaning and instead support what sounds like a great event. For those whose RIBs are not eligible, or who don't own a RIB, you could always offer to crew for someone and split the costs or you could organise your own rally?

P.S. Simonnud - I think I'm right in saying that Scorpion don't make 6.5m RIBs any more, 7.5m is the smallest AFAIK. ;-)

Whoa! Slow down!

I meant the stated aims of Biboa-who appear to be affiliated to the event if not organising it.

I'd like to point out that I'm emphatically not whinging or moaning about it. It does sound like a great event,and I understand and agree with Julian 100% when he says

Originally Posted by Julian

I think with events like this you need certain rules in place to make it viable, someone is going to be responsible for up to 35 boats and god knows how many people, they need to reduce the risk as much as possible to make the event both safe and a success.

particularly after doing safety boat cover for fast rag'n'sticks with skippers with a wide variety of ability. Keeping track of that many boats of varying speeds is an absolute nightmare.

I'm just making the point that Biboa gets referred to jokingly at times as the Scorpion Owners Club and that it has been said that it's a tag they don't want.
Possibly it's not the wisest of things to do if they wish to forward that aim is to organise a big event sponsored by Scorp that only excludes non Scorps. Does that make sense?

It IS just a comment. That's all.

[Louise]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I meant the stated aims of Biboa

Which of BIBOA's stated aims does this event go against?

I'd like to point out that I'm emphatically not whinging or moaning about it.

Good - I didn't say you were one of the whingers, but there were a couple earlier on in the thread.

I'm just making the point that Biboa gets referred to jokingly at times as the Scorpion Owners Club and that it has been said that it's a tag they don't want.

It's not so much an unwanted tag as an inaccurate tag. There are plenty of BIBOA members with RIBs which are not Scorpions, and also quite a few who don't own a RIB at all.

Possibly it's not the wisest of things to do if they wish to forward that aim to organise a big event sponsored by Scorp that only excludes non Scorps. Does that make sense?

But it doesn't only exclude non-Scorpions. As Simonnud referred to, Scorpion used to make 6.5m RIBs and those would also not qualify.

I think if BIBOA had been approached by a different manufacturer wanting to organise this type of event, they would probably have agreed to work together, just as they have with this Rally. It just happens to be Scorpion that have decided that they want to organise an event. We'd be cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we said no to Scorpion just because a few people cling on to the idea that all BIBOA members have Scorpions! It sounds like a great event so of course BIBOA is happy to be involved!

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Louise

Which of BIBOA's stated aims does this event go against?

Ok, bad wording. It has been heard said by Biboa members that they don't want to be known as a scorp owners club...

Originally Posted by Louise

Good - I didn't say you were one of the whingers, but there were a couple earlier on in the thread.



It's not so much an unwanted tag as an inaccurate tag. There are plenty of BIBOA members with RIBs which are not Scorpions, and also quite a few who don't own a RIB at all.



But it doesn't only exclude non-Scorpions. As Simonnud referred to, Scorpion used to make 6.5m RIBs and those would also not qualify.

I think if BIBOA had been approached by a different manufacturer wanting to organise this type of event, they would probably have agreed to work together, just as they have with this Rally. It just happens to be Scorpion that have decided that they want to organise an event. We'd be cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we said no to Scorpion just because a few people cling on to the idea that all BIBOA members have Scorpions! It sounds like a great event so of course BIBOA is happy to be involved!

Yes, I agree on all those points. I think you're kind of missing one though-if people (even jokingly) refer to Biboa as the Scorp owners club it doesn't have to be accurate to be an amusing tag-or for it to be a myth.

I do find it hard to believe you're taking what is an amusing and inaccurate tag (and we do all know it's not really true) seriously!

Remember, if it looks like a duck, it might well be a goose...or a dead red herring

(Note-I'd love a Scorp-far better than Ribeye )

[Louise]

Haven't you reached Australia yet?!

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Yes, I agree on all those points. I think you're kind of missing one though-if people (even jokingly) refer to Biboa as the Scorp owners club it doesn't have to be accurate to be an amusing tag-or for it to be a myth.

I do find it hard to believe you're taking what is an amusing and inaccurate tag (and we do all know it's not really true) seriously!

Remember, if it looks like a duck, it might well be a goose...or a dead red herring

There was nothing that I could see in your earlier posts which made it look like you were joking.

I do get quite passionate when people have a go at BIBOA (or just make a 'joke' about it being the Scorpion owners' club) because I know how hard people work for the club, to promote it and encourage new members, and it only takes an offhand comment such as you made to undo all those efforts. Unfortunately, some people take these 'joke' comments seriously and are put off finding out more about the club, which IMHO is a shame because joining BIBOA has greatly enhanced our enjoyment of Ribbing and through the club we have made many good friends.

(Note-I'd love a Scorp-far better than Ribeye )

And I knew you wouldn't be able to resist having a go at timw - you just have to keep jumping on that boring bandwagon, don't you?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Louise

Haven't you reached Australia yet?!

Nope, I'm sitting on your pile of earth giggling quietly

[Poly]

Louise, I understand your comments and also why BIBOA would not want to be seen as elitist, never mind associated purely with one manufacturer.

But if that is where BIBOA want to be - represent the normal RIB users, and be recognised as the national authority on ribs (by rib owners not just the rya) then perhaps BIBOA should question if the 7.5m rule is appropriate for an event which will presumably place a significant demand on BIBOA resource in 2009/2010.

Especially since your membership is apparently dominated by 6-8m boats.

Finally, to say that there is no "scrutineering", or strict rules and that each boat is responsible for its own safety and then turn round and say no boats less than 7.5m is not just contradictory but potentially negates any "liability benefit" that BIBOA might have gained from saying "its up to you".

[Louise]

The rules have been (are being) drawn up by the organising committee, not by BIBOA. I'm not aware of any pending discussion on the 7.5m minimum LOA, however, if a number of potential entrants feel strongly enough they should get in touch with the organisers instead of moaning about it on a forum.

There is no reason why this event should place a significant demand on BIBOA resources as BIBOA is not the sole organiser and the event is being supported by Scorpion.

I know that a lot of thought and discussion went into the decision to restrict the event to boats over 7.5m. The 'Rules' section states that guidelines will be issued and the organisers "reserve the right to reject a boat from entry if they feel an entry poses a risk to themselves or others". I don't understand what you consider to be contradictory. At the end of the day, it is up to the Rally organisers (and that is not just BIBOA) to decide how they want to run the event.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Louise

The rules have been (are being) drawn up by the organising committee, not by BIBOA.

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Appears to be a BIBOA event?

So its not a BIBOA event then? Surprised you picked up on the rest of Nos' statement without answering this question then. If its not a BIBOA event then should the BIBOA logo be in a prominent spot on the event website?

There is no reason why this event should place a significant demand on BIBOA resources as BIBOA is not the sole organiser and the event is being supported by Scorpion.

oh so it IS a BIBOA event, well partly, oh and it IS a Scorpion event - oh I see how Nos' is getting confused... ...perhaps BIBOA should suggest the organisers clearly state on the website the role of each organisation.

The 'Rules' section states that guidelines will be issued and the organisers "reserve the right to reject a boat from entry if they feel an entry poses a risk to themselves or others". I don't understand what you consider to be contradictory.

yes but elsewhere they try to use the old "The safety of each boat is the responsibility of each Skipper, so boats will not be expected to go through a formal scrutinising process" get out - but doing that, and then stipulating rules on size and that the event can kick you out at any stage IS contradictory. The organisers are either making judgements on the suitability of craft or they are not.

At the end of the day, it is up to the Rally organisers (and that is not just BIBOA) to decide how they want to run the event.

yes but its up to BIBOA to decide if an "exclusive" event is representing the interests of its membership and presenting the image they wish to the Ribbing community.

I'm not aware of any pending discussion on the 7.5m minimum LOA, however, if a number of potential entrants feel strongly enough they should get in touch with the organisers instead of moaning about it on a forum.

I'm not a potential entrant (taking my boat round WOULD be fool hardy). However I am a potential BIBOA member - but the image BIBOA presents (whether intentionally or not) is that its for Big "offshore" ribs.

PS - I support the concept of the event; and the concept of BIBOA - but don't feel BIBOA does anything to encourage ME to join.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Polwart

PS - I support the concept of the event; and the concept of BIBOA - but don't feel BIBOA does anything to encourage ME to join.

..... perhaps you should heed the words of Groucho Marx.. "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member"

[Louise]

Polwart, it's really quite simple. As it says on the Rally website, Patrick Byrne, MD of Scorpion, conceived the idea and Scorpion is funding the website, publicity, secretarial support, etc. BIBOA and RIB International were approached to become partners in the event. From BIBOA's point of view, some of our members are on the organising committee (bringing with them their knowledge and experience of organising races, cruises and world record attempts and taking part in endurance events such as this) and, no doubt, some publicity for the event will find its way onto the BIBOA website and the club magazine. That's about it, as far as I can see.

elsewhere they try to use the old "The safety of each boat is the responsibility of each Skipper, so boats will not be expected to go through a formal scrutinising process" get out - but doing that, and then stipulating rules on size and that the event can kick you out at any stage IS contradictory. The organisers are either making judgements on the suitability of craft or they are not.

I would imagine that what this means is that the boats will not be subjected to the rigorous scutineering process which happens before races (as this is not a race) but boats will be expected to be seaworthy. Can you imagine the furore if an event ran in which anyone could turn up in a boat in any state, (e.g. engine hanging on by one bolt, one tube partially deflated) and be allowed to take part? IMHO not contradictory, just plain sensible!

yes but its up to BIBOA to decide if an "exclusive" event is representing the interests of its membership and presenting the image they wish to the Ribbing community.

It's hardly an 'exclusive' event. As I said before, it sounds like a great event so why shouldn't BIBOA be involved? I'm sure this event will be of great interest to many of our members, whether as 7.5m+ RIB owners or potential crew members or just armchair enthusiasts.

I am a potential BIBOA member - but the image BIBOA presents (whether intentionally or not) is that its for Big "offshore" ribs.

PS - I support the concept of the event; and the concept of BIBOA - but don't feel BIBOA does anything to encourage ME to join.

Perhaps you could explain how you have come to the conclusion that BIBOA is for big offshore RIBs only please? What does BIBOA need to do to encourage you to join?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Louise

BIBOA and RIB International were approached to become partners in the event.

I guess that's the bit that's confusing me. What does being a "partner" mean? You are contributing cash? Its running under your 'banner' for some sort of insurance reason? Or you are helping to run the event. The fact that BIBOA members are involved with the organisation is not in itself a reason for BIBOA's to be involved. There are RYA members involved but the RYA is not a partner.

Perhaps you could explain how you have come to the conclusion that BIBOA is for big offshore RIBs only please? What does BIBOA need to do to encourage you to join?

Louise, the same way that anyone comes to conclusions on any organisation that they might consider joining. BIBOA's "public" image is what it portrays on its website, through the events it runs, word of mouth etc. - if BIBOA want's me to percieve something else then it needs to push out that message.

Things you could consider to attract members with smaller boats...

1. Organise cruises/events specifically for smaller boats (why would I join in the majority of your events are targetted at offshore/longer distances). If these things go on - but are less structured than the "big" cruises that get mentioned here/RI etc then look at the PR for small stuff.
2. Base membership fees on boat engine/size (compare your fees to most sailing class assocs - and you will see they are quite high)
3. Review your "image" in terms of the photostock you use, and statements like "the smallest boat is 4.5m with 50HP".

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Richard B

if we see an event, organisation that does something new or different, we moan. If something doesn't suit us exactly, we moan.

Richard, is it purely a British trait to be resentful of anyone making constructive comment or suggestion?

[Louise]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I guess that's the bit that's confusing me. What does being a "partner" mean? You are contributing cash? Its running under your 'banner' for some sort of insurance reason? Or you are helping to run the event. The fact that BIBOA members are involved with the organisation is not in itself a reason for BIBOA's to be involved. There are RYA members involved but the RYA is not a partner.

You're looking far too deeply into all this. AFAIK BIBOA is not contributing any cash. I have no idea what the insurance arrangements are for the event. BIBOA is helping to run the event by way of providing knowledge and experience, and publicity to our members. If you are so interested in the intricacies of the organisational set up, why not email Patrick at Scorpion and ask him?

Things you could consider to attract members with smaller boats...

1. Organise cruises/events specifically for smaller boats (why would I join in the majority of your events are targetted at offshore/longer distances). If these things go on - but are less structured than the "big" cruises that get mentioned here/RI etc then look at the PR for small stuff.
2. Base membership fees on boat engine/size (compare your fees to most sailing class assocs - and you will see they are quite high)
3. Review your "image" in terms of the photostock you use, and statements like "the smallest boat is 4.5m with 50HP".

Thanks for your feedback. None of BIBOA's cruises are organised/targetted for specific sizes of RIB. Cruise organisers are all unpaid volunteers and organise the cruises as they see fit. Some cruises are more suited to larger RIBs but if members with smaller craft want to take part, usually a place can be found for them on a larger boat. By way of an example: shortly after we first joined, Richard wanted to join a channel islands cruise but only had a 3m SIB. He got in touch with the organiser, who put him in touch with members going who had spare places in their boats. He had a great weekend boat-hopping and his SIB was used for getting ashore at various places. Some cruises would be suitable for members with smaller boats. We are always looking for people willing to organise cruises so if what is currently on offer doesn't suit, why not join up and organise something yourself?

I disagree that our fees are high. I did a quick Google of Sailing Associations and randomly clicked on a few. Some didn't state their fees but those who did were as follows (all for individual adult membership for which BIBOA charges £50): £65, £125, £120, £55.

Regarding our photostock and statement - we are being honest. They are actual photos taken by members during BIBOA events and the smallest main boat owned by a member is 4.5m. I guess we could be dishonest and pretend otherwise but that's not the way we like to operate. Sorry if that has put you off joining but, as I said previously, you do not need to even own a boat to join.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Louise

You're looking far too deeply into all this.

heez gott de arrse cuz heez ownly gott a likkul wan

Originally Posted by Jono

."I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member"

thay wudunt av mee

i ad a leter bak saiyin.....

deer garF

fuk orf

yoov got noe fkin chanse yew bbastud

kynd reegards

looweeze

sp. weer keapin yorr fiffty kwid az wel