Flares: should we give up carrying them?

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by SPR

Before I go on, I must state that am an Authorised UK Importer & Reseller of Rescue Laser Flares; and owner of the site mentioned before on this forum that sells them.

Hi Scott. Welcome to Ribnet

[ribrunt]

Originally Posted by SPR

I ... am an Authorised UK Importer & Reseller of Rescue Laser Flares [and] I still carry parachute flares on my boat, as last resort, since these can be seen in all directions.

'Nuff said

[tonymac]

Having read all this I suppose I better get a basic flares pack asap!

[m chappelow]

one big adavantage with a para flare is they are in a sense a fire and forget ,once fired you can ,collapse on deck , ie get on the radio ,plug the hole ,start bailing,attend the injured ,get the liferaft deployed ,where as if you have to start aiming lazer beams at potential rescuers thats what you are going to have to concentrate on ,,i suppose danging a lazer flare on a kite or balloon may help .as long as a its not in a gale ,the lazer types may be well seen from 20 miles away ,as long as your stood on the bridge of a large ship but not if you are if couple of feet above sea level as in a small boat .

[SPR]

Hence my statement:

Laser Rescue flare is designed to be used as pinpoint instead of parachute replacement. To guide rescuers to your location. (How many times you watched the TV rescue shows where the Helicopter cant find the causality.)

....Maybe i should have added.. "after you used other means to summon help, eg VHF, PLB, EPRiB or even the dreaded mobile phone!"

The Kite idea won't work! The Laser Flare must be used in accordance with the instructions to make it effective.

I have been to RNLI (Ian from Seaskills), Flare's demo (was part of the RYA sea survival course) and it was a very useful to see the pyrotechnics flares in action close up. The white pinpoints we used looked/are lethal, and i thought where in a RIB could i set one of these off! without wrecking my tubes.

The White Parachutes we released were impressive, the recoil on these was quick surprising and i had already was warned about it!

Thanks Ian, for welcoming me to RIB.net on my own right, just catching up on mails etc after Diesel Course.

regards

S.

[cyberstoker]

The last post which mentioned a flare demo made me wonder:

We are regularly told that using up your old handheld red & smoke flares on bonfire night is illegal "because they can only be used in an emergency" but yet it seems to be Ok for them to be let off as demos up and down the country. (I'm excluding parachute flares from this question to avoid discussions about the descending parachute setting things alight)

I'd therefore be interested if someone could post up the exact wording of the legislation which prohibits setting off flares other than in an emergency, and also the section which allows them to be used as demos and defines the circumstances, including who has authority to permit this use.

I have seen (though I forget where) a prohibition on using a flare so as to cause a false alarm, but I don't think a cloud of yellow smoke on bonfire night in say Gloucester would do that.

[SPR]

Two things:

1) ALL flares used at flare demos are WHITE this indicates collision/look am here. We were told using RED even at a flare demo is illegal not to mention all the safety protocols in place contacting coastguard etc before and after.

2) Quote from RNLI Press release:

" ‘The firing of a RED flare in a non distress situation is illegal under the Merchant Shipping Act and could divert valuable search and rescue assets away from a genuine search and rescue emergency. Marine distress flares are NOT fireworks, and if used incorrectly can be extremely dangerous. "

Full article:

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/pr...ticleid=382335

S.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by SPR

Two things:

1) ALL flares used at flare demos are WHITE this indicates collision/look am here. We were told using RED even at a flare demo is illegal not to mention all the safety protocols in place contacting coastguard etc before and after.

2) Quote from RNLI Press release:

" ‘The firing of a RED flare in a non distress situation is illegal under the Merchant Shipping Act and could divert valuable search and rescue assets away from a genuine search and rescue emergency. Marine distress flares are NOT fireworks, and if used incorrectly can be extremely dangerous. "

Full article:

http://www.rnli.org.uk/who_we_are/pr...ticleid=382335

S.

But the question is WHERE does it state its illegal . I could tell you that eating sausage rolls is illegal - it doen't mean I am right ! It has been posted by a well respected organisation that they just phone the CG a few minutes prior to a demo & after . I think there was a thread about where it says its illegal - but no-one can see to find which bit of the MSA states its illegal .......

I have also seen the RNLI fire red smokes on exercise (clearly not an emergency) & demo ( maybe RIBEX or Soton boat show - cant recall which ) are they breaking the law - I think not ...........

[m chappelow]

of the major govening bodys ,they will all to cover there own intrests ,say that its illegal to set of a flare in a non emergency ,
as far as i was told they are now classified under pyrotecnics regulations ,in acoastal area yes a bit silly but as i said before . but how does one see the difference on say bonfire night well inland ,regards burning handheld flares on ribs ,inflatables ,liferafts ,your paddle or boat hook with an open ended tube will help keep the dross from setting your boat on fire ,and if possible keep down wind .

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Blackroady

I have also seen the RNLI fire red smokes on exercise (clearly not an emergency) & demo ( maybe RIBEX or Soton boat show - cant recall which ) are they breaking the law - I think not ...........

Don't want to split hairs, but the smokes are orange

[RichardB]

Just picked up this thread and thought I'd add a few observations.

I did a sea survival course at SWAC on the Itchen about 4 years ago and had the opportunity of setting off some flares (out of date) on the waterfront there. As others have said, it was both great fun and very very useful. Tons of smoke and every flare went off. No paras but we did use red/orange at the session.

Ever since, I've always kept a cheap leather gardening glove gauntlet thing in the flare container.

Last year I did a canoing trip with our local canoe club. On calling Portland coastguard to log out trip, they asked if we were carying flares and actively suggested we did (in addition to the handheld VHF that I had). "If you do need help, it makes it much easier for the helicopter to find you."

On the only occasion when I'd wanted to use a white flare to warn off a coaster that had turned into our path (at night); we were short handed on deck under spinnaker and it all happened too quickly to retrieve a white from the flare pack. Just had enough time to call all hands and take evasive action. (Closing speed was probably 25- 30 kts and things surprisingly fast by the time that you realise the course has changed.) Since, we carry a white close to hand in the companion way but I still think I'd rather get out of the way.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

Don't want to split hairs, but the smokes are orange

Yes that is splitting hairs ! red becomes orange very quicly at any distance............

So is orange legal , but red not ? And who 'told' you that ?

[m chappelow]

i suppose flying the union jack flag upside down and have in an orange coloured boat with a black wheel house constitutes the distress rules too ,

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Blackroady

Yes that is splitting hairs ! red becomes orange very quicly at any distance............

So is orange legal , but red not ? And who 'told' you that ?

Sorry for splitting hairs.

I accept that orange might look red to some people, (and indeed, even white flares get mistaken for red) but I'm not aware of anyone in the UK selling red smoke as part of a marine pyrotechnics package, so it isn't really an issue.

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

have in an orange coloured boat with a black wheel house constitutes the distress rules too ,

You've lost me here. Why would this be a distress signal?

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

i suppose flying the union jack flag upside down and have in an orange coloured boat with a black wheel house constitutes the distress rules too ,

yep clearly - I was told you can get the death penalty on the IOW for this ...

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

You've lost me here. Why would this be a distress signal?

something orange and resembling a black square or circle in the middle...... as veiwed from the air or above ,......lol

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by cyberstoker

I'd therefore be interested if someone could post up the exact wording of the legislation which prohibits setting off flares other than in an emergency, and also the section which allows them to be used as demos and defines the circumstances, including who has authority to permit this use.

As far as I can find out so far, there isn't any such legislation. There's a separate thread about it here.

Originally Posted by SPR

" ‘The firing of a RED flare in a non distress situation is illegal under the Merchant Shipping Act and could divert valuable search and rescue assets away from a genuine search and rescue emergency. Marine distress flares are NOT fireworks, and if used incorrectly can be extremely dangerous. "

This only applies to distress flares fired from a vessel.

[m chappelow]

orange smoke and white star shells used to be also , in aknowlagement of a distress signal too .

[SPR]

Interesting Article in this months Motorboat Monthly:

http://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issu...&prev=sub&p=80

Talks about Flares etc

S.