Air gun - tighter controls?

[Bigmuz7]

Whilst on the subject .. whats the general view about whether or not air rifles are about to get banned ? .. and if so I fancy buying one before they do, as my old man has nicked mine. If they do then get banned, will it just be a matter of no further sales, or will they have to compensate owners for them as was the case with handguns. I cant see this (compensation) as there is no certificate authorising their ownership but the worst case scenario is that they would have to be surrendered . Any views on this gentlemen ?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Whilst on the subject .. whats the general view about whether or not air rifles are about to get banned ? .. and if so I fancy buying one before they do, as my old man has nicked mine. If they do then get banned, will it just be a matter of no further sales, or will they have to compensate owners for them as was the case with handguns. I cant see this (compensation) as there is no certificate authorising their ownership but the worst case scenario is that they would have to be surrendered . Any views on this gentlemen ?

I think this might just be a Scottish thing? Driven by a few tragic but isolated incidents - where something else would have been used instead. There does seem to be popular opinion in favour of tougher regulation - but I doubt that an outright ban will happen in the near term. Perhaps a licensing scheme for ownership/sales etc. is the more likely result.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Whilst on the subject .. whats the general view about whether or not air rifles are about to get banned ? .. and if so I fancy buying one before they do, as my old man has nicked mine. If they do then get banned, will it just be a matter of no further sales, or will they have to compensate owners for them as was the case with handguns. I cant see this (compensation) as there is no certificate authorising their ownership but the worst case scenario is that they would have to be surrendered . Any views on this gentlemen ?

I USED to own a lovely Uberti replica like the photo. Cost me about £300. It used the Brocock air cartridge system. Basically you pumped up the cartidge and placed a pellet in the cap. It was set at 6ftlbs and needed about 6 pumps per cartridge. You could then shoot 6 rounds like a revolver. To be honest is was more of a gimmick and I hardly ever fired it but it was a work of art.

Then our lovely government decided to put a stop to things. They were very crafty. They didn't ban them because that would have meant they would have to pay compensation. I had 2 choices - hand it in to be scrapped(or sold by bent copper) or get an FAC with it and be subjected to all the crap that goes with it - for an air pistol...........

I had no option other than to hand it in. If I had tried to keep it I would have been facing a mandatory 5yrs in prison!!!

And as has been seen recently the strictest gun laws in the whole world haven't helped much in Manchester or London............

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I had no option other than to hand it in.

except as you already said you did have another option - to get a FAC for it.

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by Polwart

except as you already said you did have another option - to get a FAC for it.

Yeah but that really defeats the idea of low powered weapons in the first place, but .. I can see where they were coming from. I dont really think replicas are a good idea either, they cause a lot of stand offs. Having said that, he could still posess any other pistol ? What grounds was the discrimination on ? .. the fact it looked more real ? How vague is that

But I think you are right Polwart, it may be a Scottish thing , in which case they will have no power to legislate .. right? .. as firearms legislation is a westminster issue.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Yeah but that really defeats the idea of low powered weapons in the first place, but .. I can see where they were coming from. I dont really think replicas are a good idea either, they cause a lot of stand offs. Having said that, he could still posess any other pistol ? What grounds was the discrimination on ? .. the fact it looked more real ? How vague is that

I agree, but he was making out that the state had robbed him of his prize possession- if it were that important he would have got the FAC for it (assuming of course he could convince the officials he was of suitable character etc!). I don't really get the fascination with guns and so cant understand replicas at all. I wouldn't ban guns outright - but I think anything that pretends to be a licensed weapon should probably be licensed too.

But I think you are right Polwart, it may be a Scottish thing , in which case they will have no power to legislate .. right? .. as firearms legislation is a westminster issue.

that's my understanding... and its probably the main reason why nothing has come of it yet...

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I agree, but he was making out that the state had robbed him of his prize possession- if it were that important he would have got the FAC for it (assuming of course he could convince the officials he was of suitable character etc!). I don't really get the fascination with guns and so cant understand replicas at all. I wouldn't ban guns outright - but I think anything that pretends to be a licensed weapon should probably be licensed too.
that's my understanding... and its probably the main reason why nothing has come of it yet...

The state DID rob me of a prized possession. When I bought it there was no mention of it needing an FAC. If there had been I wouldn't have bought it. I did not ask them to move the goalposts - they chose to do so.

Would they have paid me for all the extra security I would have needed? Would they have compensated me for the the extra hassle? I doubt it.

You say I had a choice - I don't think Hobson's choice is up to much really.........

And as for Replicas being banned what about chair legs? Oh and rucksacks? People have been shot for carrying both........

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by codprawn

And as for Replicas being banned what about chair legs? Oh and rucksacks? People have been shot for carrying both........

Yes .. but Harry Stanley bent down on one knee and pointed his chair leg at an armed copper who was shouting 'Armed Police!' ..from many yards away .. what were they supposed to think / or do when he refused to drop it ? .. plus they knew he had previous I think

Anyway what the feck has this got to do with the fact airguns are going to get banned or licensed?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The state DID rob me of a prized possession.

can't have been that prized if you wouldn't make the investment in security and "hassle" to keep it.

And as for Replicas being banned what about chair legs? Oh and rucksacks? People have been shot for carrying both........

no shooting someone principally because they are carrying a rucksack or table leg is clearly wrong unless something about their actions leads you to believe they are actually a specific and imminent threat... and I would generally take the position that that is unlikely (but not impossible) unless someone is trying to get shot.

In contrast I can see no realistic reason for wandering the streets with replica (or real) firearms and so if someone does I see no problem with them being regarded as a specific and imminent threat, and that threat being dealt with using appropriate measures.

My issue with replica weapons is that they ARE used to engender fear, and they become competitive - if someone else has a weapon (real or not) then you need one too and so the spiral continues. Genuine collectors should have no problem with licensing and control.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Polwart

can't have been that prized if you wouldn't make the investment in security and "hassle" to keep it.

In contrast I can see no realistic reason for wandering the streets with replica (or real) firearms and so if someone does I see no problem with them being regarded as a specific and imminent threat, and that threat being dealt with using appropriate measures.

My issue with replica weapons is that they ARE used to engender fear, and they become competitive - if someone else has a weapon (real or not) then you need one too and so the spiral continues. Genuine collectors should have no problem with licensing and control.

Why should I have to? I bought it perfectly legally.

I can't recall EVER having wandered the streets with it!!!

So you also want ALL toy guns to be banned - also waterpistols and anything else that looks even remotely gun like.

The ONLY people I have ever seen wandeing the streets of Swansea with guns have been the Police - quite why I really can't fathom!!!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Yes .. but Harry Stanley bent down on one knee and pointed his chair leg at an armed copper who was shouting 'Armed Police!' ..from many yards away .. what were they supposed to think / or do when he refused to drop it ? .. plus they knew he had previous I think

Anyway what the feck has this got to do with the fact airguns are going to get banned or licensed?

That bit didn't but I did think the rest of my post was quite illustrative of what can and does happen and I honestly thought it would be helpful in answering your question..............

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Why should I have to? I bought it perfectly legally.

rules change - learn to live with it. otherwise you'll just end up old and bitter --- oops too late!

I can't recall EVER having wandered the streets with it!!!

I wasn't suggesting YOU did. Unfortunately other people do and its not realistic to make rules for one person and not others.

So you also want ALL toy guns to be banned - also waterpistols and anything else that looks even remotely gun like.

I haven't suggested that I want a BAN on all guns or airguns; but that things which look like real guns should be regulated more like real guns and I would extend that to so called toys if they are realistic. I'm not talking about fluorescent yellow super soakers, or the mini pistol that comes in christmas cracker - but things which are intended to look like real weapons and thus create fear should be.

The ONLY people I have ever seen wandeing the streets of Swansea with guns have been the Police

so you don't think that people in S. Wales ever carry real or replica hand guns? Your comment suggests that no one had ever threatened you with a weapon - perhaps your views would be different if you had (even a pretend) one pointed at you.

[codprawn]

Gun crime is exceptionally low in the whole of the UK - excluding some of the biggest cities.

In 2007 for example there were only 59 gun related murders in the whole of the UK!!!

The last policeman shot dead in South Wales was in 1940 something by the IRA and in Bristol it was in something like 1860.

The main reson they claim firearms incidence are up is because of the way it's all reported - now a water pistol carried by a 12 yr old is called a firearms incident and is attended by armed officers - a very dangerous escalation.

If the gun crimes figures are still so low why are more and more police carrying guns?

There was a high profile event in Swansea where they had police waving H+K MP3s all over the place. I strongly object to having a trigger happy copper pointing a H+K at me which they did to every car that came through their roadblock. The whole fiasco was called operation Jaguar - on that particular day they arrested 30 people - for such serious crimes as drugs - outstanding warrents - car crime and non payment of fines.

So yes i I have had a real gun pointed at me in Swansea and it wasn't nice. Was it justified? You tell me - the offences picked up were the usual run of the mill stuff that traditional British Bobbies used to deal with a truncheon.

It was authorised by Barbara Wilding - the same woman who set up the team that killed the Brazillian - it hasn't made me feel any safer............

[chewy]

I think the reason the likes of Brocock were banned was that you could easily convert them into an illegal firearm.
It'll be a real shame if air guns do get banned, they're already stopped you ordering them mail order. Granted if you want one you'll go buy one regardless. I was bored at work and was going to order a Crosman ratcatcher, could because I was on nights, no mail order. I spent the money on boat bits instead!

[Jelly]

Chewy
I agree with you on the brocock thoughts, I know of some one who turned an insert so a .22 rimfire could be fired - rather stupid really, I have seen the results of a Lee Enfield No.4 have a breach explosion - that lad will never be the same again
When I used to live near Bath and Bristol I saw quite a few handguns which were not in the hands of the law.
I do get the impression that some members of the government and police would like to see anything that could be dangerous banned (and enlist the knee jerk campaigning papers to help). In the country side and towns it would be back to poisoning and snares for vermin and deer control. I would not like to see that as its not a nice way to go and I don't like kids etc finding the carcasses.
Also I think its daft that our sportsmen and women have to go to another country to practice to represent our country and the Olympic ranges will be destroyed after use - what was that about a legacy...
well that's enough from me this is turning into a rant, sorry
James

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Gun crime is exceptionally low in the whole of the UK - excluding some of the biggest cities. etc etc etc

congratulations on one of you most spectacular evasive moves to date - that sort of skill will see you move from the back benches to the front when you take up office

There was a high profile event in Swansea where they had police waving H+K MP3s all over the place. I strongly object to having a trigger happy copper pointing a H+K at me which they did to every car that came through their roadblock. The whole fiasco was called operation Jaguar - on that particular day they arrested 30 people - for such serious crimes as drugs - outstanding warrents - car crime and non payment of fines.

So yes i I have had a real gun pointed at me in Swansea and it wasn't nice. Was it justified? You tell me - the offences picked up were the usual run of the mill stuff that traditional British Bobbies used to deal with a truncheon.

You didn't like it when it was a police man, who is supposed to be highly trained, has very strict procedures to follow etc - then you really won't like it when its some teenager trying to look big in front of his mates.

At the risk of digressing I'm not advocating more armed police, if anything tougher controls on replica weapons and air rifles should reduce the "demand" for armed officers.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Polwart

..I haven't suggested that I want a BAN on all guns or airguns; but that things which look like real guns should be regulated more like real guns and I would extend that to so called toys if they are realistic. ...

They already are. Check out the VCR bill.
Should airguns be better regulated?
The laws on use and purchase are already quite strict and potential breaches can have serious punishments, however the transgressions are not punished severely enough to be effective. Airguns, especially rifles, can cause lethal injuries as we have seen. They can also be used to inflict horrendous injuries on wild life either maliciously or through poor marksmanship even when used against legitimate prey.
Will extra legislation help? There are so many air rifles in circulation that I’m not sure it would be feasible to remove them all off those people who don’t choose to become “licensed”. I think we are too far down the road to go that way. What we should be doing is properly punishing those who misuse them and allowing those who enjoy them safely, within the confines of current legislation, to carry on doing so.
Just for info I’m FAC, SGC’d up to the hilt and use air rifle for some vermin control when other methods fail or are inappropriate, so licensing them is no big deal to me…..

[Tim M]

IMHO all types of gun should be banned. You can still kill someone with one of these! Someone made reference to the work "weapon" - thats exactly what they are. With reference to being shot with chair legs/bags etc, my attitude is that if you co-operate with the police you won't get shot. Waving something that could be a gun at them is probably not a great idea....Running into a tube station looking like a terrorist whilst there are a load of armed police running after you and shouting is a prime example.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Tim M

IMHO all types of gun should be banned. You can still kill someone with one of these! ....

What interesting logic. How do you propose to control everything that can be used to kill?

[Tim M]

Legislation! Cigarettes, knives, solvents.....guns?