Are you First Aid Trained

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Yes I believe that if you declare that you are a 1st aider, you become legally liable. SO claim nothing.

I can't speak for Ireland, but very simply for England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the Channel Islands this is absolutely 100% incorrect. But it is a commonly spread myth.

Originally Posted by NautiAndNice

Regarding legal liability etc - the "Good Samaritan" principle supports those acting in an emergency, although it won't protect those who go beyond accepted practices....

You are absolutely right, however we don't have any form of "Good Samaritan" protection in the UK. Yet another commonly perpetrated myth. Julian Brazier MP attempted to being some in with the Protection of Volunteering Bill, but that never got through parliament.

Originally Posted by NautiAndNice

Once a person (lay or medically trained) has initiated care of a casualty, they have established a duty of care until further help arrives.

No they haven't. Common First Aid myth number 3. (This doesn't apply to the professional staff (eg Ambu Techs / Paras) that have been called to the scene of the emergency - it is unlikely (although never been tested) to apply to volunteer staff that have been called e.g. RNLI).

Originally Posted by NautiAndNice

The Bolam principle/test also applies - it states that medical professionals are not liable for diagnosis/treatment as long as they are following a responsible body of medical opinion i.e. professionals are judged against the standard of their peers. The actions of First Aiders therefore should only be compared against the average First Aider with equivalent training and expertise.

Spot on. Although Bolam has subsequently been modified by Bolitho.

Cheers,
WMM

[wavelength]

Many "sea schools" offer the RYA first aid course but I suspect most of their trainers have never actually maintained a casualties airway, dealt with fractures or life threatening bleeding.

probably. Unfortunately I have had more than a few to deal with as a coastguard and generally just finding casualties at sea. When running a CG boat handling course for coxns we just happened to find an old guy face down in the sea-he had just fallen of a moored yacht. Despite best efforts the guy died in the ambulance(i reckon he was dead when we pulled him out). The CG lad who drew the short straw and went to the inquest (station officer and on his patch) gave evidence and the first thing he was asked was are you a trained and certificated first aider? As it happened I had renewed his ticket two weeks previous to the incident.
As far as liabilities are concerned I see little difference twixt ambulance/fire/police and the lifeboat and coastguard teams who despite being volunteers are in fact paid and are in their field the "professionals" and trained in first aid to greater or lesser degrees.

[NautiAndNice]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

No they haven't. Common First Aid myth number 3. (This doesn't apply to the professional staff (eg Ambu Techs / Paras) that have been called to the scene of the emergency - it is unlikely (although never been tested) to apply to volunteer staff that have been called e.g. RNLI).

Weird, 'cos the UK Rescuss Council's take on this is that any person (medically trained or otherwise) who happens upon a rescuss situation is under no obligation to assist, provided the situation was not caused by him/her ... however "if that person does choose voluntarily to intervene to render assistance he will assume a duty of care towards the individual concerned".

...be interested to find a reference to any change in this - my Trust's Training Dept may need to be updated!!

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by NautiAndNice

Weird, 'cos the UK Rescuss Council's take on this is that any person (medically trained or otherwise) who happens upon a rescuss situation is under no obligation to assist, provided the situation was not caused by him/her ... however "if that person does choose voluntarily to intervene to render assistance he will assume a duty of care towards the individual concerned".

...be interested to find a reference to any change in this - my Trust's Training Dept may need to be updated!!

By "my Trust"... I hope to god you are not referring to an Ambulance Trust.

You are right in what you say, that a person who happens upon a rescue situation is not under a duty. However, an Ambulance that is called to the scene does not "happen upon" the situation - they are deliberately tasked to it, with a reasonable knowledge of what to expect.

I would refer you to the case of Kent v Griffiths from 2000. Reported in the following journals;

[2001] Q.B. 36,
[2000] 2 All E.R. 474,
[2000] Lloyd's Rep. Med. 109,
[2000] P.I.Q.R. 57,
(2000) 144 S.J.L.B. 106,
[2000] 2 W.L.R. 1158,
(2000) 97(7) L.S.G. 41,
(2000) 150 N.L.J. 195,
2-10-2000 Times 422,
2-09-2000 Independent 422

Now that I've written that, I've realised that I've misinterpreted which part of my previous statement you were querying.

What the Resus Council have stated is not quite correct. I think it is phrased in that way to facilitate understanding by "lay" people. This area of law is a total grey area - as there have not been any significant cases. It is open to speculation and academic interpretation.

There is case law to support the following;

If you start a rescue, and then bail out because you can't cope - you are not liable unless you have left the casualty in a worse position than they were. (Off the top of my head I can't remember which case this is - it's an old one.)

If you start a rescue, which proves to be ultimately unsuccessful, and the casualty dies or suffers serious injuries due to the rescue attempt. As long as that rescue attempt was a reasonable and logical attempt at the time, you will not be liable. Day v High Performance Sports Ltd.

Both of these judgements start to undermine the concept of "Duty of Care". Although admittedly the Day case was after the publication of the Resus Council statement.

However, to conflict with that the case of Barrett v Ministry of Defence states that once the MoD had taken responsibility for looking after the "casualty" (who was just absolutely drunk - and ended up drowning in his own vomit) they did have a DoC and were liable for his death. Despite the fact, that the getting drunk was down to him.

So I'm sure you can see - the area is full of conflict - this is just a brief explanation. I'm not sure the Resus Council statement is a true reflection of the law as it stands, but it's better than nothing.

One further thing, If you hold a qualification in a particular area of first aid/rescue then you are expected to act as a reasonable competent holder of that qualification - NOT an expert. If there is conflicting authorities for/against the actions you take; they must have had a reasonable and logical basis. Bolitho v City & Hackney Health Authority

I am conscious that this post is taking the thread off-topic, if you wish to continue this conversation (and I am very happy to - this subject interests me enormously), feel free to contact me by email whiteminiman at gmail dot com.

Regards,
WMM

[Phil Chitty]

Do ya know what people, I've just read this thread end to end and its really annoyed me.

Absolutely no disrespect to any of you that have posted on this thread, but what is going on in this world when we have more of a discussion on legal liabilities than on how you could help a person who has just had an accident.

I have been a Health and Safety professional for 15 years now and get asked questions about potential liability before I get asked what people should do to stay safe. I was also a first aider for years and only ever used my knowledge outside the workplace and outside any liability insurances that might / might not have covered my actions.

At the end of the day you have to make a decision for yourself, would you stop and help or would you walk by.

Personally its not a question I've ever bothered with.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Phil Chitty

Do ya know what people, I've just read this thread end to end and its really annoyed me........



.....Personally its not a question I've ever bothered with.

With respect, Phil, I suspect you've never been on the receiving end of litigation, when all you were doing was "the right thing"..... makes you think twice about all sorts of things! It's the way our society has become and it stinks.

[Phil Chitty]

Originally Posted by Jono

With respect, Phil, I suspect you've never been on the receiving end of litigation, when all you were doing was "the right thing"..... makes you think twice about all sorts of things! It's the way our society has become and it stinks.

Don't get me wrong Jono. I really do see everyone's point of view.

I've had to represent several companies that I have worked for during litigation concerning incidents that didn't even happen in the workplace and learn't a long time ago that we should blame the "No win no fee" bunch for your high insurances and compensation culture that we live in these days.

The subject of this thread is a typical example. I struggle to find first aiders for the buildings I look after for the very reasons mentioned.

As I said, I tend to jump in and help because thats just the way I am. I had to last week when an old lady fell in Sidcup High Street when I was walking past and was the only person to go and help.

I guess one day my attitude to this issue will probably bite me.

[tim griffin]

I am with Phil I will dive in and help I have had to work on casualties as a passer by and wait for the ambulance to arrive given details to the Police and never had any comebacks yet .
Worse thing that ever happened to me was a ladies dog fell off the sea wall chasing seagulls ended up in the water as the lifeguard on duty I went in as it was getting bashed on the breakwater dog bit me so I smacked it on the nose dragged it ashore the lady then set about me with her stick .

I think more people should be involved as a good samaritan I would like to see First Aid Taught in schools .

Legal points aside to pinch a quote from the RNLI train one save many .

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

I would like to see First Aid Taught in schools ... ...to pinch a quote from the RNLI train one save many .

Ah but what you are proposing is in fact the opposite - train many, to save a few. I am not trying to detract from from what I think is a reasonable suggestion. Also if you teach people young enough they are less likely to be paranoid about "litigation". Once you are trained it would be very difficult (morally) to walk past someone who was dying.

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by Phil Chitty

The subject of this thread is a typical example. I struggle to find first aiders for the buildings I look after for the very reasons mentioned.

...

I guess one day my attitude to this issue will probably bite me.

Phil, this highlights the point I was trying to make.

There IS a lot of fear about being sued for helping people.

It is ALL unfounded.

There are certain myths that are propagated by people (in particular First Aid trainers) who do not fully understand what they are talking about.

Regards,
WMM

[Jono]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

.....There IS a lot of fear about being sued for helping people.

It is ALL unfounded.

As an "ex professional emergency service" employee, I would have to disagree with you.... unless you qualify it.

[SDGANDER]

Been a while since I was employed as such but I m still a State Registered Paramedic...

1. I am sure there is a legal obligation to provide 'assistance' to your level of training and available equipment or be deemed negligent, (as a healthcare professional at least).
2. In parts of the USA if you collapse on the street 1 in 4 people present will know how to perform CPR. Wonder what the ratio is in the UK?
3. If it was you or your wife/husband/son/daughter/mother/father/etc would you want me (or a first aider, etc) to do my best for you/them or worry if you were going to sue me?

Where do you stand on responding to a Mayday or Pan call? Or is that diffferent due to the legal requirement to respond?

Could YOU really walk past someone DYING and live with the fact you may have been able to make a positive difference? I couldn't...

Teach CPR and 1st aid in schools - far more useful than some of the current subjects. How many kids have been on 999 and similar programs 'saving' lifes by common sense? How many more lifes would be saved if we trained these kids who are only worried about helping instead of worrying about litigation?

Also what if someone knows your qualifications and that you failed to use your training to help a relative? In that situation I would as sure as hell sue you ar$e off....

SDG

PS No I can't quote case law, statistics, etc.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

2. In parts of the USA if you collapse on the street 1 in 4 people present will know how to perform CPR. Wonder what the ratio is in the UK?

About the same: http://www.bhf.org.uk/news/printout....917&artID=8550

the bhf are trying to put a spin on it that too many of these people were trained as a result of employment and only 1/10 are volunteering to be trained - but don't really see what difference it makes.

[SDGANDER]

Me neither - if I need CPR I don't care if the NHS/SJAB/RC or monkeys dressed in stocking and suspenders trained you as long as you do your best to save me!

...from 16 yrs experience as an NHS paramedic I think its a lot higher ratio in the UK than the USA.

SDG

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

Been a while since I was employed as such but I m still a State Registered Paramedic...

1. I am sure there is a legal obligation to provide 'assistance' to your level of training and available equipment or be deemed negligent, (as a healthcare professional at least).

There is no legal obligation at all in the UK. The HPC may well have something in the Code of Practice obliging you to stop and help (as the GMC and NMC do) but that is not a legal obligation - you won't go to court.

Where do you stand on responding to a Mayday or Pan call? Or is that diffferent due to the legal requirement to respond?

OLL v Secretary of State for Transport says that even the Coastguard do not have a legal duty to respond to a Mayday call. This was a case brought by the adventure organisation that was responsible for the teenagers dying in the woefully unprepared sea kayaking expedition off Lyme Bay. The company alleged that because the Coastguard made some mistakes in activating and allocating rescue assets they should be partially liable for the death of the teenagers. The court held that the Coastguard did not have a duty to respond.

So, if HMCG hasn't been held liable by the courts. I very much doubt that Joe Blogs out for a nice day will be held liable.

Could YOU really walk past someone DYING and live with the fact you may have been able to make a positive difference? I couldn't...

Nope.... and I've never walked past. But they all died!

Also what if someone knows your qualifications and that you failed to use your training to help a relative? In that situation I would as sure as hell sue you ar$e off....

On what possible grounds? You can't do that. There is no legal obligation to rescue in the UK, or any Common Law jurisdiction. In France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Netherlands and Japan you could end up with a variety of CRIMINAL punishments including hefty fines and even imprisonment for failing to help. As well as being left exposed to a civil action (ie being sued)

The most you could do, if the individual was a registered Health Care Professional would be to report them to the appropriate registry body in an attempt to get the struck off.

Jono - Re your comment, when discussing the "professional rescuer" the law is very muddled and unclear. Ambulance Service do have a duty to respond (Kent v Griffiths). Police do not (Alexandrou v Oxford). Fire Service does not (Capital and Counties plc v Hampshire County Council). Coastguard do not (OLL v Secretary of State for Transport). There is no logical basis for this distinction, particularly if you consider that the agencies might well be working together at an incident.
But yes, if you're talking about working on the Ambulance - Medical Negligence rears it's head, but that is a different issue to what is being discussed here. I thought we were discussing stopping to help in a "Good Samaritan" kind of way?

Cheers, WMM

P.S. Tim, sorry for hijacking your thread.

[Phil Chitty]

Anyway, aside from all this legal stuff!!

Who do you all use for your training?

I've always used St. John's in the past and they've been really good.

Is there an RYA course in first aid?

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

Cheers, WMM

P.S. Tim, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Thats ok

But the thread was merely asking how many of you are first aid trained
It now seems lots of myths and legends have reared their ugly heads.

Some people can't justify spending £50- £75 on a course that only last for 3 years but that course could save the life of Wife /Husband or kids.

Others think that if you help someone out using the skills learnt on your first aid course and they die you will be sued.

Legal points are running riot and have still not cleared up any arguements for either side only some points of law.

I will alway's go to the aid of some one I have done on a few occasions now , and have never been sued on those that did die .

If you were an Ambulance Paramedic would you prefer that someone trained in Lay First Aid who was first on scene did the right thing and if needed commenced CPR until the Ambulance arrived . Or would you want them to leave well alone and the chances of recovery are diminishing until you arrive on scene.

Scenario Rib.net rally
one of your crew suffers a heart attack May Day sent .
What do you do, nothing or wish you knew what to do.

I think it is a sad reflection on society if we are more worried about getting sued than helping someone in distress .

RLSS UK quote "Turning bystanders into lifesavers"

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Phil Chitty

Anyway, aside from all this legal stuff!!

Who do you all use for your training?

I've always used St. John's in the past and they've been really good.

Is there an RYA course in first aid?

Yes RYA First Aid at Sea a one day course costs around £50- £75 depending on where you take it.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

..., and have never been sued on those that did die .

"

I, on the other hand, am very close to someone who faced legal action when a decision cost a man his life. It was a 50/50 call and it went the wrong way. The man would have died if no action had been taken anyway. So I don’t have your faith in justice being served to the Good Samaritan, sorry.

[Clive]

Well all i can say is after reading all of the coments in this thread i believe i have made a good choice in which speices i should attempt to rescue.
so let it be known in the event of a horse and rider being lost at sea I will be the one who will perform first aid on the horse... and everyone else feel free to dodge the legal minefield of rescuing the human..
I shall watch the court case's with interest good luck..