Guns. Again.

Limey Linda · 02 February 2007, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Remember a lot of the most succesfull engines are based on very old designs. I think some of the big Volvo and Mercury inboards date back to the 50s or 60s. Prob the best marine diesel ever were the Gardners and they are still plodding along very nicely - they will outlast most of the modern stuff.

Same with guns - many of the designs are truly ancient. Of course a Glock or a Sig is a great gun but are they REALLY that much better than a Browning Hi Power that was designed in 1907? The Browning 50cal dates back to the 1920s - maybe even earlier.

Many things these days aren't quite as advanced as people would like to think!!!

I have to generaly agree with you Codders. Wish I had not sold my Hi-power a few months ago. I also sold my 50BMG single shot target rifle and have a " ton" of reloading stuff left including once fired cases, projectile and a "lot" of 5010 powder. probably enough to reload 1000 rounds. Anyone interested? Plan to move house soon so a lot of stuff has to go. Also have a custom bull barrel 300Win. Mag. on an Enfield P14 action ( bench rifle). comes with brass, dies, target grade projectiles, and turret press.

Chris · 02 February 2007, 23:34

Hmmm I dont think Parcel Force transport Guns and powder if it did get to your house I suspect you would find a line of police vans behind.

Chris

Bigmuz7 · 09 February 2007, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Same with guns - many of the designs are truly ancient. Of course a Glock or a Sig is a great gun but are they REALLY that much better than a Browning Hi Power that was designed in 1907? The Browning 50cal dates back to the 1920s - maybe even earlier.

Yes they are similar designs but try hitting a target with the browning, then switch to the Glock .... theres your improvement then. Constant refinement yields ever smaller improvements until a radical change of concept is made.

I'd like to see a big improvemnt in the use of biodiesel. The thought of growing our own fuel would make a hec of a difference to the world, in particular the Middle East.

codprawn · 10 February 2007, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Yes they are similar designs but try hitting a target with the browning, then switch to the Glock .... theres your improvement then. Constant refinement yields ever smaller improvements until a radical change of concept is made.

I'd like to see a big improvemnt in the use of biodiesel. The thought of growing our own fuel would make a hec of a difference to the world, in particular the Middle East.

That is more down to manufacturing tolerances than design. The problems with tight tolerances in the field are the slightest bit opf grit jams things. Hence the success of the AK47!!! For example the most accurate sniping rifles are still bolt action designs - ie Lee Enfield.

If only things were so simple - biodiesel is an environmental disaster waiting to happen. There just is not enough used oil to go around. To satisfy the Greens demand for this fuel need VAST areas of land to grow the crops needed. Indonesia for example are growing loads of palms to try to meet the Europe/USA demand - the problem is they are cutting down the rainforest to do it!!!

Same is happening with Bioethanol in South America - already the local population are starting to starve as the crops are all being sent to make biofuels for the USA.

And WHY? So that people can feel good and say they are carbon neutral and care about the planet!!!

The ONLY big source of power that will save the planet is nuclear. They should never burn gas/oil to generate electricity - it's bonkers.

jyasaki · 11 February 2007, 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Same is happening with Bioethanol in South America - already the local population are starting to starve as the crops are all being sent to make biofuels for the USA.

I wonder how much of that goes into *their* fuels? Brazil runs primarily E85, I believe.

But, I admit you have a point. I'd place the blame on the farmers, though; they're the ones selling the stuff to us. Greed does weird things to everyone.

jky

eupa · 11 February 2007, 12:44

The ONLY big source of power that will save the planet is nuclear. They should never burn gas/oil to generate electricity - it's bonkers.

Agree 1000% codders. Your tub going nuclear?? That would be fantastic..
The IC engine has past its shelf-life- I predict that a fuel cell type ecomically viable vehicle will be available soon... based on the wide spread use of fusion generated electricity.

I would specifically favour off peak tariffs

Agree on the ak47- even though the design dates back to the bosch in 1942-the design in fact did not need great tolerances. I would rather have a ak47 (or 74) than an m16/sa80/HK ect ect ) as I would rather kill first than be killed by a gun that would not work 100%!!!!!.

The UK government could save themselves a fortune by buying kalisnikovs, RPG 7's. mig 29's ect.

jonathan

donutsina911 · 11 February 2007, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by eupa

The UK government could save themselves a fortune by buying kalisnikovs, RPG 7's. mig 29's ect.

sure the armed forces would be over the moon knowing that blair had saved a few quid by buying that lot.

codprawn · 11 February 2007, 18:07

I do not favour fuel cells either. The IC engine has had over 100yrs of development. Why not run it on hydrogen gas? Only water comes out!!! As to where do we get the hydrogen you use the waste electricity at night from the nuke power stations - simple!!!

Seaharrier · 11 February 2007, 19:49

Thank you for your input! but what is the link again between guns and fuel and the Yamaha 350 HP ?

codprawn · 11 February 2007, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaharrier

Thank you for your input! but what is the link again between guns and fuel and the Yamaha 350 HP ?

Simple - the engine runs on fuel and you need guns to make sure you keep getting that fuel......

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

For example the most accurate sniping rifles are still bolt action designs - ie Lee Enfield.

Used to be. The Americans have this massive .50 Cal Auto sniper Rifle. Would kill you behind a brick wall at over a mile.

The bolt action designs were used because it kept the rifle stable during the firing process. No gas working parts moving around to upset the shot. Part of taking a shot involves the follow through and the movement of the whole weapon system, this is negated with the bolt action system. I never like it myself as you then had to spoil your point of aim when you re-cocked it anyway. Seemed pointless to me. But their again I'm not a sniper.

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by eupa

[B][I]

Agree on the ak47- even though the design dates back to the bosch in 1942-the design in fact did not need great tolerances. I would rather have a ak47 (or 74) than an m16/sa80/HK ect ect ) as I would rather kill first than be killed by a gun that would not work 100%!!!!!.

The UK government could save themselves a fortune by buying kalisnikovs, RPG 7's. mig 29's ect.

The AK 47 is a very inaccurate weapon. The fact it keeps going is the only thing in its favour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfjqxNsX2XQ

I'm not too sure how you insert You tube films in RIBNET but click on the link and you'll see.

The M16 and my particular favourite the AR15 seem to be over their teething troubles. Only took 40 years.

Aidan · 11 February 2007, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Used to be. The Americans have this massive .50 Cal Auto sniper Rifle. Would kill you behind a brick wall at over a mile.

The bolt action designs were used because it kept the rifle stable during the firing process. No gas working parts moving around to upset the shot. Part of taking a shot involves the follow through and the movement of the whole weapon system, this is negated with the bolt action system. I never like it myself as you then had to spoil your point of aim when you re-cocked it anyway. Seemed pointless to me. But their again I'm not a sniper.

Hi Biggles, The original sniper rifle in recent history was the Lee Enfield .303. This was much the same "engine "as used in the Bren which was a very useful animal using the same ammo.

The americans and a few others decided thet the Lee enfield was the best gun and they rebored it out to take the heavier calibre German Mauser which I do not recall but was closer to the half inch and higer velocity. Of course, the rifling within the barrell was most important for accuraeyover long distances.
We used to fire the .303 in reserves up to 500 yards and they were most accurate.

The FN and L1A1 (Fabrique National was Manu with rapid fire whilst the L1A1 was the single shot model, they had no barrelling so never made it to the Snipers list).

All this reminds me of teh Film "Enemy at the Gate" nGood film but Horrible and depressing dont you think

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

Hi Biggles, The original sniper rifle in recent history was the Lee Enfield .303. This was much the same "engine "as used in the Bren which was a very useful animal using the same ammo.

The americans and a few others decided thet the Lee enfield was the best gun and they rebored it out to take the heavier calibre German Mauser which I do not recall but was closer to the half inch and higer velocity. Of course, the rifling within the barrell was most important for accuraeyover long distances.
We used to fire the .303 in reserves up to 500 yards and they were most accurate.

The FN and L1A1 (Fabrique National was Manu with rapid fire whilst the L1A1 was the single shot model, they had no barrelling so never made it to the Snipers list).

All this reminds me of teh Film "Enemy at the Gate" nGood film but Horrible and depressing dont you think

Enemy at the Gates is an excellent film.

codprawn · 11 February 2007, 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Used to be. The Americans have this massive .50 Cal Auto sniper Rifle. Would kill you behind a brick wall at over a mile.

The bolt action designs were used because it kept the rifle stable during the firing process. No gas working parts moving around to upset the shot. Part of taking a shot involves the follow through and the movement of the whole weapon system, this is negated with the bolt action system. I never like it myself as you then had to spoil your point of aim when you re-cocked it anyway. Seemed pointless to me. But their again I'm not a sniper.

Just becuase it's big with a long range does NOT make the Barrett the most accurate rifle around!!!

The best sniping rifles are prob the Accuracy International range made in Portsmouth - the company was set up by a British gold medal winning Olympic athlete Malcolm Cooper who sadly died recently. The guns are in use worldwide - even the Germans dropping the H+K gas weapons in favour of the bolt action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_International

Something I did NOT know though was that AI have now started making a 50cal sniping rifle for the Yanks!!!

Remember ammo has a hell of a lot to do with the accuracy of a gun - the 50cal sniping rifles are designed to take out light armour etc and use standard .5" machine gun rounds - not exactly the best.

There is nothing new about big sniping rifles either - the Boys .55" for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle,_...,_.55_in,_Boys

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Just becuase it's big with a long range does NOT make the Barrett the most accurate rifle around!!!

The best sniping rifles are prob the Accuracy International range made in Portsmouth - the company was set up by a British gold medal winning Olympic athlete Malcolm Cooper who sadly died recently. The guns are in use worldwide - even the Germans dropping the H+K gas weapons in favour of the bolt action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_International

Something I did NOT know though was that AI have now started making a 50cal sniping rifle for the Yanks!!!

Remember ammo has a hell of a lot to do with the accuracy of a gun - the 50cal sniping rifles are designed to take out light armour etc and use standard .5" machine gun rounds - not exactly the best.

There is nothing new about big sniping rifles either - the Boys .55" for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle,_...,_.55_in,_Boys

Codders I think we are di-gressing from this thread and all my remarks are done from my own real world knowledge not google or whatever. But the Boyes was an anti tank rifle. It probably didn't kill many tanks.

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Just becuase it's big with a long range does NOT make the Barrett the most accurate rifle around!!!
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It doesn't need to be particularly accurate, its so damn big and destructive. Have you seen the videos of it used against the Taliban. Scary.

codprawn · 11 February 2007, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Codders I think we are di-gressing from this thread and all my remarks are done from my own real world knowledge not google or whatever. But the Boyes was an anti tank rifle. It probably didn't kill many tanks.

As are mine - I admit that I have never shot a 50cal Barret but I have shot a very wide variety of guns and was long range full bore target shooting at 12yrs old - everything from Lee Enfields to H+K G3s.

Limey Linda · 11 February 2007, 22:13

Codders
It is spelt " Boyes" and it never was a sniping rifle but a very poor anti tank weapon. Most of these are still in the N. African desert. The world record for 50 cal. accuracy is 5 rounds in a group just under 3 inches at 1000yards. ( That is approx. 0.3 minutes of angle ( MOA) )Achieved by a custom Macmillan Bolt action rifle made here in Phoenix. Also, used by the US Navy seals. Ammo used by US miltary 50 cal sniping is the Raufus round . Look it up, it is a incendary/ armour piercing/ exploding tracer. Very nasty. I have fired a few of them. Have also fired approx. 2000 round of 50 cal. in target matches using hand loaded ammo. You are correct the standard machine gun round is not very accurate. The UK marine snipers use the Accuracy international, 338 Lapua bolt action. Very effective as an anti personell round but does not match the 50 cal on vehicles. And by the way: both the US bolt action Springfield ( 1903) and the Lee Enfield were copies of the German Mauser.
Time to do some more reseach my friend.
Regards.

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 22:34

At the end of the day all guns kill.

Its not only the gun that is in the equation. The operator has got a lot too do with it as well.

Training has a lot to do with it.

I didn't want to talk about ammunition types but Limey Linda has nailed it on the head. Ammo also counts as well.

Did you know the British Army once bought Indian ammo in the 1980's. It sucked in the extreme.