Independent Lifeboats UK

[IL-UK]

Show your support to Independent Lifeboats in the UK
Please visit the link in my signature.

Thank you.

Steve

[Simon Hawkins]

Steve

I can second that

Simon

[Tiffy]

Originally Posted by IL-UK

Show your support to Independent Lifeboats in the UK
Please visit the link in my signature.

Thank you.

Steve

Without Independent Lifeboats the Coastguard and
RNLI could never cope. In the Solent alone there are more than 1200
incidents a year. Most are more of a AA type breakdown which require
a tow to a safe haven . Not what Lifeboats are for . At the same time
a simple breakdown can progress to tragedy . Example engine failure
main channel , Container Ship bearing down with limited vis under 3 miles.
Independents often on patrol can offer a fast response. Lifeboats not
allowed to patrol , and crews may have to come from home. Many lives
are saved by Independents on patrol spotting boat in trouble . Quote
from card sent by Yacht Crews we rescued as their Yacht sank. " We
went overboard and you were there ". So you recreational ribbers how
about a paypal donation to Steve of Independent Lifeboats , there members
may save your life one day
Tiffy www.venturers search and rescue.org.uk

[Rogue Wave]

perhaps we could give Independent Lifeboats there own section on the forum?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Tiffy

Without Independent Lifeboats the Coastguard and
RNLI could never cope.

I am going to dispute that. I think a better statment might be "Without Independent Lifeboats the Coastguard and RNLI would have to deploy and manage their resources differently".

Your own statement - provides part of the reason:

Most are more of a AA type breakdown which require
a tow to a safe haven . Not what Lifeboats are for .

Perhaps if the lifeboats (RNLI or Independent) weren't quite so nice/helpful (although a cynical person might put paranoid/overzealous there) then (1) people and their boats might be a little less likely to call on them (2) the many other boats in the solent might quite happily undertake east tasks like towing. At the very least people might join SeaStart!

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Your own statement - provides part of the reason: Perhaps if the lifeboats (RNLI or Independent) weren't quite so nice/helpful (although a cynical person might put paranoid/overzealous there) then (1) people and their boats might be a little less likely to call on them

I think the RNLI logic (which I agree with) is that it's far better to respond to an "easy" rescue than for that "easy" situation to worsen to a point where it's a Mayday call, which they would then respond to anyway. It's surely a more efficient use of resources to respond early and prevent the endangering of lives, than to wait for the life to be endangered??

WMM

[whiteminiman]

Or in otherwords...

Prevention is better than cure.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

I think the RNLI logic (which I agree with) is that it's far better to respond to an "easy" rescue than for that "easy" situation to worsen to a point where it's a Mayday call, which they would then respond to anyway. It's surely a more efficient use of resources to respond early and prevent the endangering of lives, than to wait for the life to be endangered??

WMM

I am not disputing the logic nor that if I was on the crew I would much rather have a few false alarms, or incidents which could easily have avoided being called out than have a delay and then recover the bodies...

...on the otherhand I get the feeling that there is paranoia perhaps in the CG control room which means the life boat gets called out to every incident no matter how minor even when there are other boats around who could intervene. As an example one of our local RNLI boats has had 68 call outs already this year. This includes 15 official false alarms and 13 disabled vessels which could potentially have been dealt with by other boats in the area. I am not trying to knock their work or disputing that they have saved 6 lives this year - but I do wonder whether someone in the control room is a little too keen to call them out... on a fair proportion of incidents they have been stood down before ariving. Since the mid 80's they have been steadily increasing in number of shouts (its now 6x the 1980 level) but actually the number of lives saved has been pretty constant (or falling slightly).

This paranoia may actually make me LESS likely to call the CG and advise them of a minor problem (despite that being the correct, and logical thing to do). I don't want to waste the RNLI boys time unless I actually need help.

[IL-UK]

The coastguard is responsible for rescues at sea. The same as ambulance services I know i work for one, Fire services, Police at lot ofcallouts are not always an emergency, but they have a duty to respond to such calls. Sometimes a call can start off as minor and in seconds turn to a serious call where death can accure, Im sure your all aware of this, like wise a call may not be as serious as first thought. But as ex lifeboat crew myself, I volunteered for this this and never once regretted going to false alarms or even hoax calls, it was my duty to..

The coastguard have a duty to send lifeboats out, not all sea going craft owners have the knowledge to help, some cant even tie a simple bowline and a tow is a very dangerous procedure if you dont know what your doing or if the line you using to tow breaks, hence why lifeboats always use their own ropes..

anyone can get into trouble at sea even lifeboat crews...

Its all to do with the age of blame, your damned if you send a lifeboat out and your damned if you do, best to send one out and be damned for doing something then hung for not...

[Jelly]

I understand where Polwart is coming from we were out on a trip and there was a CG call to assist a dinghy with a broken mast off the eastern end of the Plymouth breakwater. We responded and were asked to proceed. Once we got there we were not the only ones tasked, we all saw the yacht at the same time, who had strapped mast on deck and was proceeding home under his outboard - bemused that a simple radio call he made to the CG that he had broken his mast and was heading in under his own power and he was just informing the CG incase they got any other calls from concerned citizens was treated as such an issue.
There was us in a 5m rib, a 5.4m MoD police searider, an arctic 24 from the Mod Police, a 30 odd foot launch from the Mod Police.
If you thought the over kill was bad enough they then launched the all weather lifeboat after MoD police said it was all in hand and only after life boat had arrived agreed that the helicopter was not needed.
I'm all for the support these teams give but at the costs incurred per launch you do wonder if a few of them are just to make the stats look good for the next funding review!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Jelly

you do wonder if a few of them are just to make the stats look good for the next funding review!

I don't think it is as sinister as that. But I suspect IL-UK hit the nail on the head:

Its all to do with the age of blame, your damned if you send a lifeboat out and your damned if you do, best to send one out and be damned for doing something then hung for not...

And I completely understand the logic that call them out and stand them down is better than keep them at home and then have them retrieve a body later when the shit really hits the fan. This press release from the MCA over the weekend seems to epitomise the problem - a simple phone call to the sailing club or call on VHF may have prevented calling out about 20 volunteers.

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by IL-UK

The coastguard is responsible for rescues at sea. The same as ambulance services I know i work for one, Fire services, Police at lot ofcallouts are not always an emergency, but they have a duty to respond to such calls. Sometimes a call can start off as minor and in seconds turn to a serious call where death can accure, Im sure your all aware of this, like wise a call may not be as serious as first thought. But as ex lifeboat crew myself, I volunteered for this this and never once regretted going to false alarms or even hoax calls, it was my duty to..

The coastguard have a duty to send lifeboats out, not all sea going craft owners have the knowledge to help, some cant even tie a simple bowline and a tow is a very dangerous procedure if you dont know what your doing or if the line you using to tow breaks, hence why lifeboats always use their own ropes..

anyone can get into trouble at sea even lifeboat crews...

Its all to do with the age of blame, your damned if you send a lifeboat out and your damned if you do, best to send one out and be damned for doing something then hung for not...

Steve, I'm afraid you're wrong on a few points there.

The fire service have no duty to respond to a 999 call. They only have a duty not to make things worse if they do get there. Capital and Counties plc v Hampshire County Council

The coastguard does not have a duty to respond - a parallel was drawn between with the fireservice. Oll v Secretary of State for Transport

The police do not have a duty to respond. Only a duty not to make things worse when they arrive. Alexandrou v Oxford

The ambulance service DO have a duty to respond, although a successful action would require them to be unreasonably delayed (so this case can't be used to question AMPDS prioritisation decision and such like). Kent v Griffiths

As for it being "your duty" to respond on lifeboat shouts... it most certainly was NOT your legal duty. It was (probably) your moral duty.

Regards,
WMM

(Happy to discuss this in lots of detail - I love this subject)

[Simon Hawkins]

No lifeboat has a duty to respond, however people join this service as they want to do it, thus making the crews respond.

[havener]

Lifeboat launches are certainly not initiated due to "paranoia" in MRCCs.

Each incident has a clear protocol to be dealt with. Quite often, lifeboat DLAs (launching authorities) will be advised of a developing incident, which may be quite happily contained at the time, and asked, for example, to place the LB on 10 minute standby to launch. It is not unusual at this point for the DLA to authorise an immediate launch, preferring their "standby" time to be at sea so if things do go wrong, their response is that bit quicker.

No disrespect to the boating public, but it is not unknown for their offer of assistance to, say, tow a vessel, to become undeliverable if they have underestimated the conditions, or overestimated their own capabilities. That is why the "professionals" are tasked early on in the process. One recent tasking was to a fishing vessel towing another, the towing vessel got its own prop fouled, and therefore the incident rapidly developed into something more major.

HMCG's own MOU with the RNLI is based upon "call out, stand down" process, not "leave calling out till last moment".

I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by havener

Each incident has a clear protocol to be dealt with.

is that not the problem though... there area set of written protocols which must be followed and probably don't leave room for the officer in the control room to make a judgement call. So in belfast at the weekend (ansd i know of other similar situations) 999 calls reported a capsized sailing dinghy. the fact that capsizing dinghies is a normal part of dinghy sailing is not taken into account nor the fact that the sailing club would have its own rescue cover on site - it is simply treated as a capsize.

I do think the CG would be less incined to launch or initiate a full "rescue" if the person who decided on the call out (whether that is the man in the control room or the committee at HQ who wrote the protocol) also had budget responsibility for the cost of the call out. I am not suggesting that this would be better - but i think it is an indicator that the precautionary principle may be being over used.

[chris123]

Originally Posted by Polwart

is that not the problem though... there area set of written protocols which must be followed and probably don't leave room for the officer in the control room to make a judgement call. So in belfast at the weekend (ansd i know of other similar situations) 999 calls reported a capsized sailing dinghy. the fact that capsizing dinghies is a normal part of dinghy sailing is not taken into account nor the fact that the sailing club would have its own rescue cover on site - it is simply treated as a capsize.

I'm sure there is still room for a judgment call by the officer in the control room. In the particular example, the multiple capsizes and the sea conditions at the time would have influenced the decision to launch, together with any other information the 999 callers may have given. Had the conditions been easier, and only one dinghy capsized, the decision taken may well have been different. A 'similar' shout took place back in July:

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-ne...57D&m=7&y=2007

Contacting the yacht club might have been an option, but would have taken time and the club may have been reluctant to admit they needed help (it happens).

[DM]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

The fire service have no duty to respond to a 999 call. They only have a duty not to make things worse

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

The police do not have a duty to respond. Only a duty not to make things worse when they arrive.

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

The ambulance service DO have a duty to respond

Does this mean I don't have a duty not to make things worse. I hope so otherwise I'm in trouble.

[havener]

Originally Posted by Polwart

is that not the problem though... there area set of written protocols which must be followed and probably don't leave room for the officer in the control room to make a judgement call. So in belfast at the weekend (ansd i know of other similar situations) 999 calls reported a capsized sailing dinghy. the fact that capsizing dinghies is a normal part of dinghy sailing is not taken into account nor the fact that the sailing club would have its own rescue cover on site - it is simply treated as a capsize.

I do think the CG would be less incined to launch or initiate a full "rescue" if the person who decided on the call out (whether that is the man in the control room or the committee at HQ who wrote the protocol) also had budget responsibility for the cost of the call out. I am not suggesting that this would be better - but i think it is an indicator that the precautionary principle may be being over used.

A vast amount of how the incident is handled is strill down to personal judgement calls and experience, overseen by the Watch Manager.

I must admit given the scenario you quote, my reaction would be to hit the LB button first, then follow up with enquiries to the sailing club. Doing it the other way round would add time into the incident if, say, the club response was "er, actuallly the rescue boats stopped running" or similar.

You can always, and often do, recall a LB, CG team or helo. You can't buy extra time if you haven't sent them out first.

[IL-UK]

you can now support Independent Lifeboats in the UK whilst browsing the world wide web.

http://independentlifeboatsuk.easysearch.org.uk/

Use easysearch every time you search online and we'll give 50% of the
fees paid by our advertising sponsors to your chosen cause ie Independent Lifeboats UK.

When you search the web with easysearch you'll generate around a penny for Independent Lifeboats UK with every search you make. It doesn't sound like much, but the pennies soon mount up and you can raise £25.00 a year - or more - just by switching your normal searching to easysearch!

Thank you in advance...

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Does this mean I don't have a duty not to make things worse. I hope so otherwise I'm in trouble.

Basically yes. You have the duty to act as a reasonably competent paramedic would in the situation you are in. This rule is established in Bolam and modified in Bolitho.

However, what is unique about the ambulance service, is that once they have the correct location data - they are obliged to respond. They can be (and have been) sued, for failing to attend, or failing to attend with sufficient speed.

In my opinion, the ambulance cases are confined to their facts. I do not believe that the judiciary would dare to attempt meddling in the AMPDS system or criticising the resourcing problems that many Ambulance Services are facing.

Regards,
WMM