MAIB report into fatal collision St.Mawes

[Shaggy]

Report on the tragic collision between Carrie Kate and Kets, resulting in one fatality near Castle Point, St Mawes, Cornwall on 16 July 2005.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/..._kate_kets.cfm

MAIB has made the the following recommendation to DfT:

“
As a result of the recent MAIB investigation into the high speed grounding of the
powerboat Sea Snake, which resulted in the loss of three lives, and this investigation, a
recommendation has been made to the Department for Transport (DfT) concerning the
3
introduction of an alcohol limit for leisure users. The DfT is also recommended to
improve the harbour bye-law approval process. The local harbour authorities have been
recommended to review the standard of leisure boat activities in their area.
“


Shaggy

[Jimbob]

How sad for the people at home

did i read it correctly that seeing the boat dead ahead he turned to port

plenty to learn from this,

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Jimbob

did i read it correctly that seeing the boat dead ahead he turned to port...

...that's the way I understand it. Helluva price to pay for not turning to starb'd.

[ADS]

What a waste of a life down to lack of nav lights and the fact the helmsmen were pissed.

[Scary Des]

I must say that the report is very thorough but doesn’t support the extracted conclusions.

Although I am sure that alcohol didn’t help is wasn’t the cause, no lights, lack of training and knowledge seems to me to be more of an issue.

Des

[DGR]

The sun set at 2123, and civil and nautical twilights occurred at 2205 and 2303 respectively.

Does anyone know why there is a difference between the 'civil' and 'nautical' twilight times?

I had thought that 30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise was defined as 'nightime' (i.e. not daytime operations) by the MCA - is this right?

Dylan...

[ADS]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

I must say that the report is very thorough but doesn’t support the extracted conclusions.

Although I am sure that alcohol didn’t help is wasn’t the cause, no lights, lack of training and knowledge seems to me to be more of an issue.

Des

"The helmsman of Kets had been a fisherman for 11 years. Having grown up and fished
out of St Mawes, he was very familiar with the local waters"
"Ben Cochrane, aged 30, had grown up near the sea and it had played a large
part of his life. He left school at the age of 16 to start fishing with his father,
before working for 11 years on a small trawler based at St Mawes. After that,
Ben returned to work with his father on their ‘under 10m’ vessel for 2 years.
Ben was very familiar with the local waters, was a keen gig rower and, before
owning Kets, had been known to row between St Mawes and Falmouth. He
had attended all four of the mandatory fishing safety courses: fire-fighting, sea survival and first-aid in April 1998, and the safety awareness course in
September 2002.
Carrie Kate's helmsman, aged 30, had operated powerboats with his family from an early age, for both water skiing and general recreation, but had limited experience of navigating at night. In 1999, he moved from Cornwall to the Isles of Scilly, and began working for a local company as a crewman on a passenger ferry. After completing a practical examination, he obtained an ‘EE’ qualification
(see Annex A for Isles of Scilly certification structure) issued by the Isles of
Scilly Council on 28 April 2000. This enabled him to crew on larger passenger
ferries around the Isles of Scilly and also to bring the ferry alongside the quay
when no passengers were onboard. Having accrued sufficient experience, and
after a further assessment, he obtained a ‘DD’ qualification in July 2003. This
allowed him to helm vessels with fewer than 12 passengers onboard, from quay to quay, from an hour before sunrise until an hour after sunset. After obtaining this qualification, he continued to act as a crewman on the larger ferries but,
when required, would helm one of the company’s smaller ferries which carried
only 12 passengers."

Alcohol was a factor, but neither of the helms could be classed as boating beginners, both had a reasonable, above average level of experience, both being involved in commercial aspects of the marine industry.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by ADS

"The helmsman of Kets had been a fisherman for 11 years. Having grown up and fished
out of St Mawes, he was very familiar with the local waters"
"Ben Cochrane, aged 30, had grown up near the sea and it had played a large
part of his life. He left school at the age of 16 to start fishing with his father,
before working for 11 years on a small trawler based at St Mawes. After that,
Ben returned to work with his father on their ‘under 10m’ vessel for 2 years.
Ben was very familiar with the local waters, was a keen gig rower and, before
owning Kets, had been known to row between St Mawes and Falmouth. He
had attended all four of the mandatory fishing safety courses: fire-fighting, sea survival and first-aid in April 1998, and the safety awareness course in
September 2002.
Carrie Kate's helmsman, aged 30, had operated powerboats with his family from an early age, for both water skiing and general recreation, but had limited experience of navigating at night. In 1999, he moved from Cornwall to the Isles of Scilly, and began working for a local company as a crewman on a passenger ferry. After completing a practical examination, he obtained an ‘EE’ qualification
(see Annex A for Isles of Scilly certification structure) issued by the Isles of
Scilly Council on 28 April 2000. This enabled him to crew on larger passenger
ferries around the Isles of Scilly and also to bring the ferry alongside the quay
when no passengers were onboard. Having accrued sufficient experience, and
after a further assessment, he obtained a ‘DD’ qualification in July 2003. This
allowed him to helm vessels with fewer than 12 passengers onboard, from quay to quay, from an hour before sunrise until an hour after sunset. After obtaining this qualification, he continued to act as a crewman on the larger ferries but,
when required, would helm one of the company’s smaller ferries which carried
only 12 passengers."

Alcohol was a factor, but neither of the helms could be classed as boating beginners, both had a reasonable, above average level of experience, both being involved in commercial aspects of the marine industry.

And driving a boat at night with-out adequate lights .
Andy

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

And driving a boat at night with-out adequate lights .

Yup, agreed. That's the one that did it. It's virtually impossible to see a boat in the dark at any reasonable distance.

Around this area, illegal fishing goes on at night. I see them on the radar but they're invisible to the eye.

[Jimbob]

Lots of reason for this as stated, my view

1) Drink as in a car does not help and a no-no if your the skipper
2) Safe speed - to take J walkers point about lights
3) Lights
4) Turn to port, which brings me back to point one

As i say my view, only one missing is kill cord, ho and safety equipment, bingo full house

[Simon B]

A truly awful and never ending price to pay for a day out drinking with your mates. I am saddened. Lights are being added to our boat at present, though its unlikely we will operate even in twilight.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Simon B

A truly awful and never ending price to pay for a day out drinking with your mates.

Yes, what a tragedy for everybody involved.

It's horrendously ironic that two very experienced local boatmen were both travelling on reciprocal courses in unlit boats at night at speed both after nights out and having consumed too much alcohol.

I think that familiarity can sometimes breed contempt and they took chances which they might perhaps normally get away with but were unlucky this time.

The vital point is they couldn't see each other; if they had been lit one or the other could have taken early avoiding action, even if impaired by alcohol.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

one or the other could have taken early avoiding action, even if impaired by alcohol.

One of them did...

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Richard B

One of them did...

Not early enough...

...Kets started to turn to port after seeing the bow wave of Carrie Kate (not the lights) but was still struck on the starboard bow, presumably just having started the turn. If they could have seen them just a few seconds earlier maybe the collision could have been avoided.

[ashbypower]

Accident may have still happened, he turned to Port NOT Starboard. Now if the sport cruiser done the correct thing to pass Port to Port they probably would have still colided.

Any way this is after the incedent and to late. Sad for all involved.
A sulty lesson for others.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Accident may have still happened, he turned to Port NOT Starboard. Now if the sport cruiser done the correct thing to pass Port to Port they probably would have still colided.

Any way this is after the incedent and to late. Sad for all involved.
A sulty lesson for others.

He should have turned to starboard but even so he may have got away with it as Carrie Kate never saw Kets and consequently didn't take any avoiding action at all...

But you're right, very sad all round and a lesson for all to remember.

[roycruse]

I actually was right on the scene about 20 mins before the accident comming back from a cruise up to Plymouth.

I thank my lucky stars that I wasnt 20 minutes later and would have had to deal with 2 unlit boats crossiong my path one from each side.

I am very sorry this resulted in loss of life but there is NO excuse for being out at night with no nav lights or at least a torch.

If im out at night I not only have full nav lights but a bloody 1 million candle power spot lamp looking where im going - no one is going to miss me comming.

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by roycruse

....I am very sorry this resulted in loss of life but there is NO excuse for being out at night with no nav lights or at least a torch.....

this was the point I was making or at least trying to, no lights and travelling fast at night were the main causes of the accident but the MCA in there infinite wisdom are asking the DFT for a limit on alcohol consumption how does work
Although drink driving in cars is probably an issue, the evidence to support a similar ban for leisure mariners is non existent

OK there have been one or two headline cases but they only represent a very small percentage of the total.

Law should punish you once you have done something wrong, but drink driving rules punish you because you might do something wrong, where does this type of approach end Des

[Jimbob]

Good topic this drinking part

1) Whilst there is no evidence of drinking and helming, i am not sure it is ever really checked, unless your boating job is something where they do and obivously in those cases you would not.

2) Stopping people drink on boats - no evidence but maybe a pro-active move

i would never have a drink and helm a boat, but i never would in a car, why too much to lose, including my family

[roycruse]

There are times (mainly whilst out at sea in very low density traffic) where being completely out of your box will have negligible impact on your ability to helm your boat.

However if you are for instance trying to tow waterskiers, wake boarders, Ringo's, etc... in a busy designated ski area where not only do you need to keep an eye out for other boats but also fallen skiers etc in the water and you are constantly having to think 3 moves ahead simply to avoid killing someone. Drinking and Helming in this type of situation is plain and simply reckless.

As to the question do we need laws to prevent the worst happening - its like everything - a few irresponsible people need to be controlled so everyone has to suffer an inconvenient law.

With reference to this accident - both boats were acting irresponsibly on many levels - drinking being just one of them. It is a bloody long and expensive taxi ride from falmouth to st mawes by road - but just a few minutes by boat - if drinking and helming had been illegal I bet these people would not have even been on opposite sides of the river estuary for a night out.

There is even a fairly in expensive water taxi service aquacab that operates in the area that they might have taken if there had been a drinking law.