Sea Snake Report-MAIB

[Andy Gee]

See the MAIB have published the Sea Snake report, here .
Andy

[Shaggy]

Another tragic accident attributed by MAIB to excessive alcohol consumption.


SECTION 3 - CONCLUSIONS
3.1 FINDINGS
1. Sea Snake was seaworthy, operating satisfactorily, and was capable of
achieving speeds of about 40 knots before the accident. [2.2.1]
2. Both of the helmsmen had received RYA training for daylight operation of a
powerboat, but had not received RYA training in the operation of powerboats
during darkness. [2.2.2]
3. At the time of the accident, there was good visibility, it was not raining, and the
navigational marks were clear and unobscured. No other vessels were operating
in that area, and the shoreline was probably visible. [2.4]
4. Damage to the forefoot indicated that the boat was travelling at high speed, and
was probably turning to starboard at the time of impact. [2.4]
5. The powerboat was being operated at high speed, possibly 40 knots. This was
an unsafe speed considering the location and conditions prevailing. [2.4.3]
6. The helmsman probably became confused and unsure about the disposition of
the navigation marks leading him into the inner harbour, and decided to turn
around to starboard and make another approach. [2.5.2]
7. The helmsmen would have been suffering from the effects of fatigue, because
they had not slept for 18 hours. [2.6.1]
8. Sea Snake was being operated by a person who was nearly 2½ times over the
alcohol limit to drive a motor vehicle. [2.6.3]
9. The combination of the effects of fatigue and excessive alcohol consumption
was the principal factor contributing to this tragic accident. [2.6.4]
10. There is little effective legislation in the UK to limit the consumption of alcohol
when operating leisure boats. The Tarbert Harbour Authority Bye-Laws did not
include any reference to the navigation of a vessel when under the influence of
drink or drugs. [2.7]
26

Shaggy

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by MIAB

SECTION 4 - ACTION TAKEN
MARINE ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION BRANCH
In July 2005 MAIB investigated a fatal accident involving a collision between two leisure
boats Carrie Kate and Kets, in common with this investigation excessive consumption of
alcohol was identified as the major causal factor.
In the case of Carrie Kate/Kets the following recommendation was made to Department
of Transport :
“2005/133 Work closely with the RYA, MCA and other relevant stakeholders to
realise the urgent introduction of national regulations to establish limits on the
amount of alcohol which may be consumed by operators of leisure vessels.”
The only recommendation that is appropriate as a consequence of the Sea Snake
investigation is identical to the above, and, therefore, repetition of the recommendation
in this report is not necessary.

And excessive speed in the dark didn’t contribute in any way no no way no Des

[codprawn]

It is pretty obvious where this is leading.....

They say the MAIN cause was "fatigue and excessive alcohol consumption".

Surely at 40kts on a moonless night clost to shore this was bound to happen anyway???

[jwalker]

Tarbert isn't the easiest of entrances and I'd imagine it could be difficult if one's tired, well fed, half pished, travelling quickly, in the dark and with the town lights facing.

But, it does sound as though the MAIB have got an agenda.

[roycruse]

What else are you going to blame the accident on other than tiredness and booze.

Only other explanation is blatant stupidity or lack of necessary skill or experience for the conditions (ie night)

If you blame it on the booze - and us boaters carry on having accidents whilst under the influence then its going to end up resulting in drink/helming laws.

If you blame it on lack of experience/skill - and untrained boaters carry on having accidents then its going to lead to compulsory training and certification.

Either way its down to ALL OF US to behave responsibly and safely or end up having freedoms we take for granted restricted.

The real crime here would be for the MAIB not to do anything about it - how many fatal accidents involving leisure boaters is acceptable before some kind of regulation and licencing is necessary.

[Jimbob]

We had a simular post a few weeks ago

1) safe speed - 40 knots in the dark seems excessive - things would have been much different if they had been travelling at a slower speed as Mr Walker says its not an easy port

2) being tried means you make mistakes, part of solas is to check the capability of the people on the boat

3) Booze, i am sure does not help

If we keep having prevntative accidents - then we will be following the same rules as car drives, or something like that

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by roycruse

What else are you going to blame the accident on other than tiredness and booze.....

Dictionary definition of an accident is:-

a. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
b. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.

No mention of blame, this idea of blame was started by the lawyers and is now spreading everywhere in our society This was an accident, plain and simple, OK alcohol might have contributed but so did speed, darkeness and maybe lack of experience and bad luck, but nevertheless it is still an accident.

Originally Posted by roycruse

......Either way its down to ALL OF US to behave responsibly and safely or end up having freedoms we take for granted restricted......

No it is up to the so called experts to have a reasoned and balanced view of what constitutes a risk

On the whole I think boating enthusiasts behave in a responsible way and far fewer people are killed in boats than are killed on motorcycles who are covered by millions of laws

Originally Posted by roycruse

.......The real crime here would be for the MAIB not to do anything about it - how many fatal accidents involving leisure boaters is acceptable before some kind of regulation and licencing is necessary.

Why would you want more control and interference on your life, isn’t government controlling you enough Des

[thorper]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

No mention of blame, this idea of blame was started by the lawyers and is now spreading everywhere in our society This was an accident, plain and simple, OK alcohol might have contributed but so did speed, darkeness and maybe lack of experience and bad luck, but nevertheless it is still an accident.

I think most people would agree that, like drinking and driving, drinking and driving boats is unacceptable behaviour.

Lawyers aside, I think responsibility is the key. Specifically, I think the debate should be: "What is required to stop people drinking and boating." Roy is also right to say that people need to have some reason to behave reasonably.

In the car world, there is legislation which broadly speaking says "if you are found responsible for killing someone while driving under the influence of drink, you go to prison."

Des is right to say we don't want excess big brother treatment from the Government. Something should be done however to discourage people doing this.

Some thoughts on possible solutions: social exclusion, varying degrees of legal punishment (prison, fines, boat confiscation, ASBO), public naming and shaming (my preferred option, e.g. www.drunken-twats.com).

What do people think? (serious replies would be preferred! )

Ricky

ps: in my mind, jumping in a boat 2 1/2 times(ish) over the limit, then hammering around in the dark in a powerboat constitutes being irresponsible and stupid in my book!

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by thorper

In the car world, there is legislation which broadly speaking says "if you are found responsible for killing someone while driving under the influence of drink, you go to prison."

Ricky

I think that if the helmsmen lived hewould have been charged with homicide, hence the visit by the Procurator Fiscal to the site.
Tarbert is a difficult harbour to go into, very narrow (under 30' wide) and twisty with large rock on both sides, however thats why you slacken off before the ferry slip and do go in dead slow.

All in all a very sad and a tragic end to a fine day.
Andy

[roycruse]

The fact is - there are no such things as accidents - only carelessness and recklessness.

Anything that can be done to reduce the amount of carelessness and recklessness in boating in general is OK by me - and I just hope that sufficient is done to reduce recklessness and carelessness before I personally become the victim of it.

It could just have easily been a family aboard an anchored boat sleeping that they hit and several more people could have died.

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by roycruse

The fact is - there are no such things as accidents - only carelessness and recklessness....

Oh is that right, how about mistake is that a thing of the past as well
Tell me do your children have accidents and make mistakes or are they just being careless and reckless... .

[roycruse]

Kids are careless - nearly every second of the day - that's the fun of being a kid - knowing you can be as careless as you like and someone will be there to pick you up.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by roycruse

It could just have easily been a family aboard an anchored boat sleeping that they hit and several more people could have died.

And it could have been a family that was driving home and was hit by a drunk driver, despite all the police and government money spent to stop it.
Andy

[roycruse]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

And it could have been a family that was driving home and was hit by a drunk driver, despite all the police and government money spent to stop it.
Andy

Are you trying to say that drink driving laws have not reduced the number of alcohol related deaths on the roads.

I for one know loads of people who would drink and drive if it were legal.

Get real...

[donutsina911]

Originally Posted by roycruse

The fact is - there are no such things as accidents - only carelessness and recklessness.

WTF!? Its this kind of attitude that makes this country more like the US every day. Get a grip.

Visiting a company the other week I was gobsmacked at the level of HSE compliance they adhered to, with safety notices telling you about safety notices, endless briefings on what to do and how to do it and H&S policies that were like war and peace. The same day I visited, a member of staff slipped on a wet staircase that had been caused by a leak in the velux window above and knackered her back. There was no carelessness or recklessness, just misfortune.

People need to accept that there is something as bad luck and that accidents can always be minimised with legislation (although never eradicated) but at what cost to our society.

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by roycruse

Are you trying to say that drink driving laws have not reduced the number of alcohol related deaths on the roads.......

The short answer to that is we don’t know, the reason we don’t know it that we don’t know how many people drink and drive and don’t get caught
Another thing to bear in mind is that accidents are often recorded as drink related even if it is the victim of the accident who is drunk or if people who are injured have alcohol in there system even if they are not over the limit

[roycruse]

Originally Posted by donutsina911

WTF!? Its this kind of attitude that makes this country more like the US every day. Get a grip.

Visiting a company the other week I was gobsmacked at the level of HSE compliance they adhered to, with safety notices telling you about safety notices, endless briefings on what to do and how to do it and H&S policies that were like war and peace. The same day I visited, a member of staff slipped on a wet staircase that had been caused by a leak in the velux window above and knackered her back. There was no carelessness or recklessness, just misfortune.

People need to accept that there is something as bad luck and that accidents can always be minimised with legislation (although never eradicated) but at what cost to our society.

You are completely wrong on 2 counts.

1. You have got me wrong - I do not advocate the litigious way that the US has already gone and we are sadly going, at all.

2. The incident described above was absolutely careless - I make a habit of looking where im placing my feet and judging the speed and track that I take when walking based on the terrain that I am walking on. 99.9% of people do this without even knowing that they are doing it. If this woman took it for granted that her footing would be sure and didn't check then she was careless not misfortunate. The carelessness was probably due to her becoming complacent as she had stepped there 100 times before without slipping why should she slip that time.

[donutsina911]

You are completely wrong on 2 counts.

1. You have got me wrong - I do not advocate the litigious way that the US has already gone and we are sadly going, at all.

By advocating that there is no such thing as an accident, by definition you are implying that there is always someone to blame or someone at fault, whether it is you or somebody else. Like it or not, your argument is at the root of the blame and claim culture of this country.

2. The incident described above was absolutely careless - I make a habit of looking where im placing my feet and judging the speed and track that I take when walking based on the terrain that I am walking on. 99.9% of people do this without even knowing that they are doing it. If this woman took it for granted that her footing would be sure and didn't check then she was careless not misfortunate. The carelessness was probably due to her becoming complacent as she had stepped there 100 times before without slipping why should she slip that time.

Fck me Roy, you must be one special human being. I hope you never have a genuine accident, although by the sounds of things, your spatial awareness that the women obviously lacked will see you through.

[roycruse]