Unseaworthy vessels - regulation needed?

willk · 27 May 2015, 17:00

I saw this today: Body found in search for missing Lewis boat - BBC News

It's a sad case. I've seen a couple of similar cases over the past year, when people put to sea in both makeshift boats or conventional craft that are in a very poor state of repair/preparation or are overloaded.

In the case here, the boat was photographed before departure. In another tragic case locally, a very overloaded boat was spotted about to sail and the crew were advised to remain in port - they didn't and there were fatalities a few minutes later.

My question for you is this - should there be authority vested in some agency to restrict the use of leisure craft that are unfit for purpose, or where the crew are intent on endangering themselves? I'm thinking of the extreme cases, obviously, but I know that once you start down that road it may become a slippery slope....

Starovich · 27 May 2015, 17:08

Think this will be an interesting thread, historical any suggestions of interference/legislations/rules gets beaten down. Who makes/enforces the rules, what are the penalties, do we stop at not seaworthy, what about LJ,Killcord,radio, skill/training?

Personally I think minimum std should be regulated for but many here disagree as I have found in the past.

Last Tango · 27 May 2015, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by willk

My question for you is this - should there be authority vested in some agency to restrict the use of leisure craft that are unfit for purpose, or where the crew are intent on endangering themselves? I'm thinking of the extreme cases, obviously, but I know that once you start down that road it may become a slippery slope....

With so many variables.....boat, equipment, weather, location, route plan, experience (or lack of). Where would you draw the lines. It would end up down to some individual's opinion and there would be some "jobs-worth" that thought it wasn't safe for a ten meter twin engined, fully equipped rib to go out for a run round the harbour when it was raining in case someone slipped on the wet deck and fell in. RYA's training is there for those who want it and there are plenty of self taught, experienced boaters who'll exercise common sense but I'd think the slippery slope might end up with compulsory PB2 or ICC then, like driving, people would pass their "basic driving test" and have no further training, believing that they're good drivers.

willk · 27 May 2015, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starovich

Think this will be an interesting thread, historical any suggestions of interference/legislations/rules gets beaten down.

I'll keep an eye on this one so it will remain civilised, but no-one wins a thread

For clarity, I'm thinking about vessels and crew who are clearly at very high risk so more the homer boats, very drunk crew, overloaded, sinking, whatever sort of stuff. I recall seeing a small punt launch with a father and two very young boys aboard. The main engine failed to start so they set off to fish on the aux. There was no buoyancy aboard - no jackets or buoys or cans. The kids had teeshirts and wellies on. I last saw them about three miles offshore. I was with a CG official who said that (had we been in the Republic of Ireland), he would have grounded them. So more that sort of scenario... The bloke in the OP obviously had issues, but he was photographed and allowed to go to sea, and his death.

Maybe we need a format for delivering "helpful caring intervention", rather than fines and lists of equipment and MOTs?

willk · 27 May 2015, 17:45

Or this guy: Britain's worst sailor dubbed Captain Calamity gets into difficulties for the FIFTEENTH time but declines help of lifeboatmen | Daily Mail Online

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/inque...-of-them-died/

John Kennett · 27 May 2015, 18:30

Where do you stand on the similar subject of the jeans-and-trainers hillwalking types who might get into a bit of bother? Should they be restrained for the greater good?

John Kennett · 27 May 2015, 18:32

The crew of that finely crafted and well insulated vessel that you pictured would probably have been OK if they hadn't broken their oars!

ShinyShoe · 27 May 2015, 18:39

How do you draw a line? So I buy a 2.3m SIB and shove an old seagul on it. One of the tubes is leaky but its fine for the day just needs topped up overnight.

I decide to take it on a canal, would u have me stopped? An inland reservoir? A large inland loch like ness? A sea loch? To Ireland?

I may argue any of those could be an extreme adventure. Sure I have assessed the risks. But I've not written them down.

There would be days I might make it to Ireland. There would be days I wouldn't make it across Loch Ness...

beamishken · 27 May 2015, 19:13

Regulation & compulsory training / licensing isnt going to stop tragedies there simply isn't the resources to police it effectively
The tragedy in Padstow was an example of the fact all the gear & training won't stop the odd tragedy
I enjoy the freedom of boating & hope I do it in the safest fashion I can but I don't want more regulation

Poly · 27 May 2015, 19:20

Does s.94 of the Merchant Shipping Act not already confer this power (in the UK)?

Last Tango · 27 May 2015, 19:20

By the time we've been boating a few years we'll all have seen examples.....Loch Lomond, December....a jet ski with a young child on the back, no life-jacket, no wet/dry suit and yes, she ended up in the water. I have to believe that they genuinely have no idea of the potential danger....no one would wilfully put a child at that kind of risk? But how do you legislate against stupidity. It's always going to be down to judgement and the best we can do is offer advise as politely as possible and hope that it's heeded. 40+ years of boating, commercially endorsed APB, I'd never "impose" my judgement on others.

paintman · 27 May 2015, 21:04

Would you include water toys - by that I mean the inflatable plastic things used by children at the beach?
I've seen several of the boat type recovered with small children in them having been caught by wind & tide. Landed one myself who'd been carried nearly 1/2 mile along the coast by the time I caught up with him, fortunately he'd had the sense to stay in it. Lovely sunny day & the beach was packed.

willk · 27 May 2015, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I decide to take it on a canal, would u have me stopped? An inland reservoir? A large inland loch like ness? A sea loch? To Ireland?

I think I'd draw your line at Ireland...

simmons0 · 27 May 2015, 21:08

No, horrible idea. Keep the sea free.

ShinyShoe · 27 May 2015, 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by willk

I think I'd draw your line at Ireland...

I'm sure most people would! But I've done a ferry crossing to Ireland where I genuinely could see my face in the sea right the way across. I suspect that'd be less risky to have done than some of the crazy sh1t Frank Dye did in a wayfarer... ...yet he's highly regarded as an adventurer rather than needing regulated...

willk · 27 May 2015, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I'm sure most people would! But I've done a ferry crossing to Ireland

Not much point asking me where I'd draw the line if you've slipped in already!

Mollers · 27 May 2015, 22:01

I have a phrase for such vessels, a £500 'West Briton Wonders'. The West Briton being our local rag from where many of these heaps are purchased. Such 'rigs' often consist of a late 70's or early 80's dog rough speedboat combined with a similar age outboard last serviced in the mid 90's all sat on a totally f'ked trailer.

Many don't see the water, as a bearing often collapses en route and a wheel ferks off somewhere like, into oncoming traffic etc. If one should make it to a slip, look out!

Such a rig killed a 4yo kid a few years back, the hitch let go on recovery, no breakaway cable, it shot back down the slip, lurched sideways and smashed the kid to bits as he sat on the side of the slip.

Yes, there should some sort of minimum requirement.

Last Tango · 27 May 2015, 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

Many don't see the water, as a bearing often collapses en route and a wheel ferks off somewhere like, into oncoming traffic etc. If one should make it to a slip, look out!

Such a rig killed a 4yo kid a few years back, the hitch let go on recovery, no breakaway cable, it shot back down the slip, lurched sideways and smashed the kid to bits as he sat on the side of the slip.

Yes, there should some sort of minimum requirement.

This is down to "construction and uses" and is covered by road traffic acts. Point being, if they've ignored those regulations where there's a fair chance of being caught, the same people are going to pay no head to boating regs where there's virtually no chance of being caught.

Mollers · 27 May 2015, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Tango

This is down to "construction and uses" and is covered by road traffic acts. Point being, if they've ignored those regulations where there's a fair chance of being caught, the same people are going to pay no head to boating regs where there's virtually no chance of being caught.

No paperwork, no launch, with the risk of confiscation. It could be policed if there were the will.

ShinyShoe · 27 May 2015, 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Tango

.....Loch Lomond, December....a jet ski with a young child on the back, no life-jacket, no wet/dry suit and yes, she ended up in the water. I have to believe that they genuinely have no idea of the potential danger....no one would wilfully put a child at that kind of risk? But how do you legislate against stupidity.

Some Muppet here flipped his car at silly speeds with toddler in the back, no car seat etc. Kid amazingly uninjured.

Police / CPS decided that Road Traffic Regs would not punish enough (already disqualified) so they prosecuted using child negligence rules... Convicted
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ipping-4798865

They have also similarly charged someone who put a pram (with child in) in the back of a van.

So if someone needs a law to stop something there could well be one.