Boat /Dive Insurance Query

Razorbill RIBs · 26 May 2010, 10:37

Renewal time, and I'm struggling with conflicting advice....I will try and set out the query as best Im can here, but am concious some of the terminology may be incorrect, so apologies in advance...

We insure via a large well known Consultant as are many others on here...and who are v helpful. They know that we offer (in basic terms) both passenger and dive charter (in so far that we will take people out to dive sites and that they enter the water to dive, no tuition is given or offered currently).

I am told that they insure 'hundreds' of commercial boats on this basis and that I am fully covered for any injury I may physically cause to any divers (or others) in the water with the boat etc. As I understand it, the divers have a responsibility to be qualified /competent and insured for the dives they do as well as taking any dive marshal responsibilties on as a party...working on this basis, we send out T&C along these lines which we ask to be signed off prior to charter. These were checked by a lawyer when we drew them up and i have dived myself on this basis.

However, i have also been advised that this is not correct and that we DO have a responsibility to the said divers when they leave the boat and that as such I must be insured on a 'member to member' basis....my current insurer tells me this is absolutely not the case as it ONLY applies to clubs /club RIBs etc....the other party rebuke this just as strongly and say I need it for commercial work too and that I also have a responsibility to the divers as I am the one dropping them in....what kind of responsibility?

So, which is it? Am I correctly covered OR do I need 'Member to Member' and possibly even more....i.e. is there another element of liability I need to insure against? and what? Do i have a legal liability to the divers i dropped in?

You will appreciate I am very confused. Both parties are convinced they are correct. For my part, I merely want to ensure that I am fully and comprehensivley covered. Any help/guidance apprciated PARTICULARLY from anyone who is operating in the same /similar manner.

I have passenger charter only /no dives booked for a week and for my peace of mind want this resolved correctly /promptly...shame there doesn't appear to be any definitive guidance around (or is there?)

Many thanks,

Dan

PeterM · 26 May 2010, 11:06

Dan - PM sent (from an insurance perspective).

Pete

Cookee · 27 May 2010, 09:08

Who is the other party and what is their interest in your business?

biffer · 27 May 2010, 09:39

i don't see how you can have a duty of care for the diver other than getting him safely to the site, you're not dropping him in, he's jumping in himself, it's his choice, the second matey is talking the talk, ask him for an explaination in writing and see what happens

Razorbill RIBs · 27 May 2010, 10:37

Cookee,

the initial concern was raised by another dive charter operator

who had obviously been reading our site /seen our T&C's and words to the effect that we offer a taxi service (I know I should probably be flattered he was looking

).....sadly and IMO unproffessionally he made the comment to an important client of mine who thankfully had the good sense to see that he was stirring....but reported back to me anyway /did query what he had said (something along the lines of "all very well just taking divers to sites, but he does have a responsibility to them in the water" and "it wouldn't stand up in court")

I then (merely because I wanted to be positive there wasn't anything in his criticism /wanted to be able to reassure my client) spoke to a few other insurance providers (as well as my own again), one of whom gave the impression we did have a duty to divers and that his insurance was specifically geared up towards what we were doing /divers and that my existing cover wasn't sufficient I did need member to member etc.....Again, whilst I fully realise (and thank you also to Peter for his PM /Experience

) that this ws likely to be hard sell, it still sowed the seed of doubt...and I wanted to be clear I was fully covered /my current cover was correct, hence asking the question here /of other RIBnet operators....

Biffer, on further questioning, the insurer who said i was insufficiently covered has now backed down and feels that the cover we have is okay and that he now agrees member to member isn't required

, but says that he can also 'insure us for admin of 02' - A completely different matter.....I therefore don't feel he is as specialised as he thinks /advertises to be after all

My conclusions are:

a) If no one here has any advice /experience to the contrary I am now relatively happy I am correctly covered.....please feel free to comment if you haven't already etc.

b) Isn't it sad how unproffesional some people are....both in terms of the other operator and the insurance broker. Certainly not a way I have or would conduct myself

c) There's plenty enough sea out there for everyone....the charterer in question is at least 40 miles away from me anyway

Thanks all....still be pleased to hear any other views :Thumbs:

biffer · 27 May 2010, 11:18

i used to own a dive shop that had a bsac and padi schools attached to it, we had dive boats and i still do charters, we used to have a least one a day trying to sell us insurance, safety course's, etc, they all talked the talk, as i say, ask them to put it in writing with there name on it, that's a different matter

Razorbill RIBs · 27 May 2010, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

i used to own a dive shop that had a bsac and padi schools attached to it, we had dive boats and i still do charters, we used to have a least one a day trying to sell us insurance, safety course's, etc, they all talked the talk, as i say, ask them to put it in writing with there name on it, that's a different matter

Cheers Biff

treerat · 27 May 2010, 19:17

Try giving BSAC a ring - I'm sure they'll be most helpfull and let you know what THEY expect a boat / shuttle service ti have insurance wise.

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section...tle=Contact+Us

Razorbill RIBs · 27 May 2010, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by treerat

Try giving BSAC a ring - I'm sure they'll be most helpfull and let you know what THEY expect a boat / shuttle service ti have insurance wise.

http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section...tle=Contact+Us

Have spoken to PADI along same lines....may give BSAC a shot too to see if they differ

m chappelow · 27 May 2010, 23:25

perhaps the duty of care part is if you forgot to pick them all up after the dive and not to leave anyone behind in the water ,or blend one in the prop.

Razorbill RIBs · 28 May 2010, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by m chappelow

perhaps the duty of care part is if you forgot to pick them all up after the dive and not to leave anyone behind in the water ,or blend one in the prop.

Interestingly, one thing that was mentioned when talking to PADI was use of prop guard.....my limited experience is that they ruin handling /manouverability, so extreme care it is!

Simon B · 06 June 2010, 17:50

The O2 course might not be a bad idea, do you carry O2 already? Most divers when chartering almost expect it now and there is always a seed of doubt planted when skippers say "no you'll need to bring your own" most BSAC clubs who have boats but might also charter may indeed bring their own.

Prop guard question is always a knotty one, the RNLI whose business it is to rescue people often in the water do not fit them, probably for a good reason, chewy might know this.

Carry on dude, proactive is good, hope business grows.

chewy · 06 June 2010, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon B

The O2 course might not be a bad idea, do you carry O2 already? Most divers when chartering almost expect it now and there is always a seed of doubt planted when skippers say "no you'll need to bring your own" most BSAC clubs who have boats but might also charter may indeed bring their own.

Prop guard question is always a knotty one, the RNLI whose business it is to rescue people often in the water do not fit them, probably for a good reason, chewy might know this.

Carry on dude, proactive is good, hope business grows.

Without sounding like a tw@t its probably because we're trained to a decent standard although accidents do happen.
Another reason could be if your doing surf work you want all the power you can get and a prop guard may hinder this?

o2 administration is covered on the RNLI's first aid course.

Razorbill RIBs · 06 June 2010, 21:00

Cheers Simon....as Chewy say we are O2 admin trained via RNLI.....will still be jumping on a PADI course at some point though.

Agree with Chewys comments re prop guards....was very interested in the Australian investors Safe Prop thread on here....if it does what it says it is a no brainer!

Just had a great day out of Porthgain ....some very happy divers with getting on towards 18m (!!!) vis reported ....we could see them on the reef from the RIB...

Dan

GaryC · 07 June 2010, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

i don't see how you can have a duty of care for the diver other than getting him safely to the site, you're not dropping him in, he's jumping in himself, it's his choice, the second matey is talking the talk, ask him for an explaination in writing and see what happens

I don't understand that view. A diver is not just jumping in when they feel like it, they are being dropped in. Every dive boat I have ever dived off (commercial and club) has the Coxswain issuing instructions to ALL the divers telling them exactly when to jump. It is the Coxswain's skill that determines exactly when to go. If they ain't happy that the correct conditions are met then the divers don't jump.

I would have said the duty of care is basically from getting them on at port to dropping them off at port again. However that duty of care is different at different times.

Apart from the normal ferrying duty of care (weather conditions etc) There is a duty of care once the diver jumps off the boat until they submerge. Then there is a duty of care to observe the situation until they come up again. (This has to be reasonable as sometimes they can catch you out by moving off the site with tide etc and that is why all Coxswains should insist on the Delayed SMB). Once they come to the surface where expected then there is a duty of care to get them out of the water safely.

If a diver does not then return to the buoy or use a DSMB then the Coxswain has a duty of care to inform the Coastguard of the situation.

Gary

diver 1 · 27 February 2011, 21:26

May I add that possibly its common if only 1 person (skipper) remains on the boat then that person has a duty to log divers in and out of the water?

i.e. ensure that all divers are recovered to the boat.

It sounds so basic but I´ve heard several true cases where a diver or pair of divers have been left at sea by mistake for various reasons. It doesn´t just happen in the movies!

I think PADI requirements may include a written role call of divers in and divers out.

I only take friends diving on my rib but I have a plastic slate and pencil on a bungy glued to the console with a proforma that includes divers initials, diver time in and time out of water and when my GPS is repaired I will continue to log drop in point and collection point.

Should any diver not return to surface or suffer illness following a dive I´d like to think I´d have some very useful information to pass on to the emergency services.

You don´t have to be a qualified diver / instructor etc to keep a quick note of this basic informatiion. My slate is the size of an ice cream tube lid and I simply wipe it clean each time we start a new day diving.

Best of luck with your case