Coding for occasional charter use

[craig_c]

A friend asked me to take them out on the boat for the day and I've had a few people ask me if they can hire the boat in the past however she is uncoded and not insured for any sort of use like that so I declined it.

Just out of interest, what sort of things would she require for coding?

I can remember in the past our old redbay was coded and had some extra things nailed on like an emergency tiller and life rings.

Ideally I would like her to be coded for the Clyde area, possibly west coast so that's never more than 20 miles from a safe haven.

Some quick questions I've thought about. Our current liferaft is the holdall type kept in the accommodation, does it need to be the fixed type with the hydro release?

Boat was last surveyed in 2016, how often do you need this carried out?

Skippers ticket, I have a level 2 with 25 years at the wheel of everything from ribs, lasers to 60ft classic yachts. what do I need?

Insurance? If its more than double its not happening!

Just some pointers would be good. Not looking to start a business or give up my real job, a few times a season would be nice.

[willk]

Originally Posted by craig_c

Insurance? If its more than double its not happening!

Probably your first phone call so. Save you a lot of trouble...

[ShinyShoe]

You'll need the yellow guide here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ll-craft-codes

Cat 3 or 4 I think you are fine with a raft in a bag. But the raft will need serviced. You will need lifejackets plus 2 spares for the number coded, life rings, pointless first aid kit, epirb (not plb), a maintainence manual and Various other bits of paper that likely lie unopened till the next inspection.. Plus things that you may or may not be happy with the rules are rules. So you might for instance have 10kg anchor and 20m chain and be very happy but the rule says you need 11kg anchor and 10m chain. The man with the rule book isn't allowed to say "yeah that should be fine" instead he says "buy a new anchor"

Unless you can do anything clever with tax, I doubt the additional costs will off set your expenses. Unless you are doing a lot of it.

I've seen prices around £800 a day slippered. But that would include fuel, your time, berthing, gear etc. AND it assumes there is a market out there who will pay that. Or you have advertising etc to create the market.
MCA certificate is 5 yearly.

You would need your ticket commercially endorsed which requires a medical.

[jonp]

This side of the pond a boat needs inspection at each stage of its build to pass and meet commercial survey requirements, which are costly and tightly regulated. The skippers knowledge and qualifications are quite intense taking many months of training, for instance the part I'm currently working on in regards to the environmental international laws is 130hrs of class room and 130hrs of home study ( this is just a small module of the training) fire fighting and chemical hazards training is the same for a 5m or a 150m vessel as is sea survival and all other aspects. It's not just having the gear onboard the boat but ever box needs to of been ticked that you have passed on how to use it.

If it's anything like here simply covering the costs of yearly inspection and increased insurances etc, simply heading out with a couple of mates soon becomes 8 people to simply cover costs. My advice would be to simply ask people to share fuel costs and not charge as a business unless you are looking to go all out starting a new business. Before I moved here I was on a charter boat that I believed to be a fully legitimate business, Unfortunately an extremely over wait gentleman who drank so much alcohol ended up falling over board ( Needles area) . He was grabbed by his legs but his sheer size meant by the time he had been brought onboard he had actually drowned, nobody new cpr. Turned out the owner had no qualifications or the boat safety requirements even though it was an ex lifeboat. He ended up doing a runner to Spain and I never heard the outcome.

[GuyC]

In the bigger than 24m world, they have just started allowing pleasure yachts to do occasional charters and there is a regulation lite version of the commercial yacht rules.

As a result there may be a precedence set for the type of thing you are looking to do but it would need discussing with the MCA.

I think the MCA delegate responsibility to a number of companies so you might want to talk to one of those first.

I'd suggest you would need to identify where you were non-compliant and then work out whether you could provide an equivalent level of safety. You might find the difference between where you are now and coded is relatively small.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by GuyC

In the bigger than 24m world, they have just started allowing pleasure yachts to do occasional charters and there is a regulation lite version of the commercial yacht rules.

Have they?

I thought the occasional rules were to allow commercial use for things that are borderline commercial. E.g. boat builder doing a sea trial or paying for a rib to provide safety cover at an event.

I'd suggest you would need to identify where you were non-compliant and then work out whether you could provide an equivalent level of safety. You might find the difference between where you are now and coded is relatively small.

I think the word equivalent is the issue. For instance. You don't see many non-commercial ribs carrying life rings. If everyone wears a life jacket at all times you'd question the need. You might be persuaded it's there to rescue someone not onboard your boat. In which case you might say I'd use that fender as a float and it's already tried to 20m of rope. The MCA don't care - you need a two rings.

Same with all the other bits - you will need emergency steering even though you don't need a spare engine. You will need the size and number of fire extinguishers they stipulate. No good saying I have 4 X 2kg if they want 3x 2.5kg

If you have already kitted a close to compliant boat, it may still be as expensive as starting from scratch.

The 20miles from safe haven thing is also a bit odd for fast craft like RIBs. So I'm fair weather that's <1hr and in nasty weather or with an issue it's still 2-3hrs tops. But mostly the same rules apply to a displacement craft doing 5kts or a yacht who in good weather might take 5hrs to get to a safe haven. So you end up carrying a rediculous first aid kit - if you need 30 anti-diarrheoa capsules on a 1 day rib trip you have a problem!

And to make matters more frustrating many of these things have limited shelf lives (life raft, fire extinguishers, first aid kits, EPIRBs) so you know the costs will keep coming

Jonp's training level is only required >24m or >12 POB in the UK. But - if you were 20miles from safe haven rather than 20miles from a nominated departure point, you need advance powerboat (commercial) and experience. APB prerequisites are PB2, First Aid, VHF cert. (Yachtmaster can be used instead)

[Mac50]

Hi Craig,

I completed coding my XS700 about a month ago.

Insurance is about 3x the previous cost. It now includes public liability cover.

You can get the PB2 commercially endorsed (as long as you have a handful of other RYA courses - first aid, sea survival etc, the list is on the RYA site). But, this only qualifies you for a cat 6 operation - 3 miles from a nominated departure point.

To do what you are describing requires Advanced Powerboat certificate of competence with commercial endorsement.

The liferaft must be ISO 9650. You also need a SOLAS B grab bag. If in a valise it must be inside a dedicated locker - nothing else allowed in there.

The surveyors costs and fees for the coding came to about £800. It could be done for less if your boat is compliant and you only need one inspection.

If all that hasn’t killed the idea stone dead, PM me and we can have chat on the phone about the upgrade to the vessel etc.

Iain

[Pete7]

I coded Old Spice in 2003. Cost about £2000 to do and just about broke even over the 5 years with some charter work. However, it paid for a well equipped rib. You need to read the rules carefully, I needed liferaft and jackets. Commercial first aid kit, barometer all hatches labelled. Second method of starting the engine (extra battery bank) emergency steering and so it goes on.

There are also some stability tests, so on the day I borrowed a crew off a yacht and 9 of us sat on one side of the hull to prove it didn't sink. I coded it for 6 people, 20 miles offshore and daylight fair conditions etc.

I already had the Adv PB ticket with commercial endorsement.

Duncan (Searider on here) did the coding for me and was very helpful.

Having gone to all that trouble in the mid 00s there were lots of ribs working under the radar. The MCA did patrol the Solent looking for them. The big problem is you probably get away with it, so long as no one gets injured. In the unlikely event that happens, then you haven't a leg to stand on and your insurance company are going to say "No" and quite rightly too.

Sharing the costs of a day out with all those on board and you in charge is completely different, just keep it squeaky clean if going down this route.

Pete

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Mac50

You can get the PB2 commercially endorsed (as long as you have a handful of other RYA courses - first aid, sea survival etc, the list is on the RYA site). But, this only qualifies you for a cat 6 operation - 3 miles from a nominated departure point.

Craig - worth looking at the limit of Categorised Waters in the clyde. It’s different for summer/winter but does come down fairly far in summer. The 3 miles from NDP applies to three miles beyond that limit as I understand it, which might be enough to get you to all the areas people want unless they want out the clyde. If the categorised waters themselves are enough then worth looking at what your local authority require for licensing - it’s likely to be similar to cat 6 coding, but the list may be less explicit. Each L.A. sets it own rules (you’ll find it on their website usually in amongst things like taxi drivers, scrap merchants and food stalls as it’s the same legislation).

To understand this you’ll need to get your head around what the MCGA mean by “going to sea”.

[Tim M]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Have they?

Depends who “they” are. I don’t believe the MCA allow this, but some red ensign group flag-states are allowing it (Jamaica and Marshall Islands for sure). Note that most of their legislation is based on MCA rules and regs (LY3) but they have the flexibility to make certain exemptions depending on the nature of the situation.

Edit: totally separate to the recent changes which I think you’re referring to in the U.K. allowing occasional use for commercial gain and for the purpose of brokers etc.

It’s called “private and light charter” or PLC. Depending on the size of the boat it can still be a bit of a nightmare to “code” to, for example I was first officer on a 43m motor yacht (Jamaican flag) around four years ago and we put it through PLC, they said fine but as a condition we also had to operate under mini ISM so still lots more paperwork than a purely private boat. I can’t remember off the top of my head what the max number of weeks we could charter a year under PLC was but tempted to say 4. Clearly at $200k+ a week that’s a serious offset to your annual running costs so worth doing.

As for the original question here, I’ve coded numerous RIBs in the U.K. over the years. Ultimately it was never cost effective and caused me a lot of agro and grief, not to mention two lost friendships due to friends taking the p*** (both involving four figure repair bills for me). Would never go down that road again.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by Tim M

.....some red ensign group flag-states are allowing it (Jamaica and Marshall Islands for sure). Note that most of their legislation is based on MCA rules and regs (LY3) but they have the flexibility to make certain exemptions depending on the nature of the situation.

Edit: totally separate to the recent changes which I think you’re referring to in the U.K. allowing occasional use for commercial gain and for the purpose of brokers etc.

The Cayman Islands are also doing it and apologies for any lack of clarity.

Reading all the posts, it does look quite an uphill task to retrospectively code a boat.

[craig_c]

Bit of a checklist but here goes

Equipment
Liferaft - 6 man in date, new last year
Lifejackets - 6 on board, cylinders and triggers replaced
MOB rescue system in place, have that anyway
6hp Aux outboard -spare steering system?
fire bucket- surprised nobody has mentioned that
epirb- not got one
ais - not got that either

Skipper
PB2 on record but the RYA have lost my safety boat cert, will have to try find that
no VHF training,
Have offshore medical and advanced first aid training, much higher than RYA but will have to see if it corresponds

I will phone the insurance next week, as said previous that will be the deal breaker. Would also be handy to see if there is an MCA inspector local to advise. Im not really keen to majorly change the boat but as said before, its a good way to boost your safety standards on board

[willk]

Craig - we spoke back in 2012/3 about my plans to commission a RIB - a useful chat for me. I ultimately did build and had Redbay Boats do the (Irish) coding for me. I learned that getting a boat coded is not quite a black & white issue, that and experience makes it a lot easier. If the insurance doesn't put you off I may have a couple of ideas for you.

[Tim M]

Originally Posted by craig_c

Skipper
PB2 on record but the RYA have lost my safety boat cert, will have to try find that
no VHF training,
Have offshore medical and advanced first aid training, much higher than RYA but will have to see if it corresponds

For any useful charter operation you’ll need commercially endorsed advanced powerboat:
-Advanced course + advanced exam pass
-ML5 or ENG1 medical
-VHF short range certificate
-Sea survival
-First aid
-RYA professional practises and responsibilities exam pass

Send the above off and you’ll get your “ticket”.

[Last Tango]

Been through this.

Most of the Clyde (during the summer) is categorized down to a line from about Fairlie to Skipness. This means it is regulated by the inshore/inland codes which are "voluntary".
I had a discusion with Clyde port's assistant harbour master regarding this and he conceded that while they would rather the boat was coded it was not compulsory. However I'd imagine the insurance for an un-coded boat would be brutal.
It was actually not much more than leisure cost when coded.

[Tim M]

The inland waterways code is not voluntary to the areas of water it covers.

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Tim M

The inland waterways code is not voluntary to the areas of water it covers.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...Code_COP13.pdf

2.3 Local variations
However, given the range of vessels, operating
environments and types of operation that are covered
by the Code, it is not possible to cover every situation.
This Code is therefore not mandatory, but provides a
framework for licensing authorities and operators to
use in determining the appropriate standards for the
vessels with which they are concerned. In particular,
competent navigation or harbour authorities may
make variations from this Code which take account
of local circumstances.

(I have spoken with the local harbour authority...they had not adopted this.)


Does the Code apply to you?
Application and interpretation
Page
5 General
5 Type of operation
6 Area of operation, including definition
of Category A, B, C and D waters

As I said....My interpretation of "not mandatory" is that compliance is voluntary and Clyde Port's assistant harbour master and MCA in Southampton agreed. with me.

[Iankristy]

How many seats does your boat have and how many people do you want to code it for?
What boat is it? Do you know the freeboard height at transom?

[Tim M]

I think you’re splitting hairs on the wording. The code in its printed form may not constitute a legal code of practise in its own right, but as per the wording above it forms a framework for authorities to establish their own guidelines. Other legislation regarding having your boat licensed still applies. Take the Solent for example. Classed as CAT D waters and as such you can code through several local authorities which use the inland waterways code as the base for their coding requirements. If I’m using my boat for hire or reward in the Solent (or anywhere else for that matter which is classed as inland categorised waters) I must still be appropriately licensed (both the boat and me) if it’s for commercial use.

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by Poly

Craig - worth looking at the limit of Categorised Waters in the clyde. It’s different for summer/winter but does come down fairly far in summer. The 3 miles from NDP applies to three miles beyond that limit as I understand it, which might be enough to get you to all the areas people want unless they want out the clyde. If the categorised waters themselves are enough then worth looking at what your local authority require for licensing - it’s likely to be similar to cat 6 coding, but the list may be less explicit. Each L.A. sets it own rules (you’ll find it on their website usually in amongst things like taxi drivers, scrap merchants and food stalls as it’s the same legislation).

To understand this you’ll need to get your head around what the MCGA mean by “going to sea”.

I’m pretty certain the 3 miles from ndp is just that. You also have to return to that ndp and can’t drop passengers elsewhere. If you plan to do more than this advanced pb commercially endorsed should be your first port of call. The cost of this if your worried about insurance costs will put into perspective.