Commercial Endorsements declared invalid by IOW Public Health!

[Jon Brooks]

< Edit: See page three of this thread for the outcome! JK >

I thought this may be of interest

Jon

e-mail copy

"Gareth Davies MSc. MIL.

Principal Environmental Health Practitioner (Consultation & Licensing)

Tel: (01983) 823169

Fax: (01983) 529804

E-mail: gareth.davies@iow.gov.uk

Gareth,

Further to a useful discussion today, with your colleague – Karen, who was extremely helpful in pointing out the rulings of the Solent Standing Committee, could I please draw your attention to their document issued 16th June 1994, concerning vessels carrying up to 12 passengers.

This document, in ‘Section VIII’ and in the ‘Annex – Manning’, clearly states that there are exemptions to your Boatmans’ Licence, if the individual concerned holds as minimum a RYA/Dot Coastal Skipper Certificate. As an additional requirement, this should be ‘commercially endorsed’ to satisfy all the others factors such as medical certificate, VHF Licence, Sea survival certificate, First aid certificate.

Could you please confirm, that if such certificates or higher are held, there is no requirement for a Boatman’s Licence to be held in addition.

Regards

Alan"

A copy of my e-mail to Gareth Davies, shown above, resulted in a verbal reply (e-mail awaited), in which he stated that irrespective of any other qualifications, even those given as 'exemptions', anyone 'in-charge' of a vessel carrying paying passengers (additionally explained as passengers on a charter or sea school vessel), must hold a local authority Boatmans Licence.

He, as the enforcing officer, issues licences for vessels entering Cowes Harbour. Any Skipper not holding such a licence, is breaking the law under the appropriate Public Health Act dated 1907.

Anyone not so licenced, may also be in breach of any insurance cover, should any 'incident' occur!

This I tried to explain, would require almost every commercially endorsed Skipper to apply individually to every local authority covered by the Solent Standing Committee. His responce was to the affect that it was his responsibility to apply the law, not decide it.

[Pete7]

Hmm, bargin, at £138 each off to Google the Solent Standing Committee, never heard of them. Wonder what the RYA would have to say about this and there professional qualifications, or is this just a new ploy for the fraggle rock lot to fleece some extra money out of peeps.

Pete

[alant1]

< Edit: Repeated info because I merged two threads. As It originated from Alan I've left this post rather than deleting it! JK >

e-mail copy

"Gareth Davies MSc. MIL.

Principal Environmental Health Practitioner (Consultation & Licensing)

Tel: (01983) 823169

Fax: (01983) 529804

E-mail: gareth.davies@iow.gov.uk

Gareth,

Further to a useful discussion today, with your colleague – Karen, who was extremely helpful in pointing out the rulings of the Solent Standing Committee, could I please draw your attention to their document issued 16th June 1994, concerning vessels carrying up to 12 passengers.

This document, in ‘Section VIII’ and in the ‘Annex – Manning’, clearly states that there are exemptions to your Boatmans’ Licence, if the individual concerned holds as minimum a RYA/Dot Coastal Skipper Certificate. As an additional requirement, this should be ‘commercially endorsed’ to satisfy all the others factors such as medical certificate, VHF Licence, Sea survival certificate, First aid certificate.

Could you please confirm, that if such certificates or higher are held, there is no requirement for a Boatman’s Licence to be held in addition.

Regards

Alan"

__________________________________________________ _

A copy of my e-mail to Gareth Davies, shown above, resulted in a verbal reply (e-mail awaited), in which he stated that irrespective of any other qualifications, even those given as 'exemptions', anyone 'in-charge' of a vessel carrying paying passengers (additionally explained as passengers on a charter or sea school vessel), must hold a local authority Boatmans Licence.

He, as the enforcing officer, issues licences for vessels entering Cowes Harbour. Any Skipper not holding such a licence, is breaking the law under the appropriate Public Health Act dated 1907.

Anyone not so licenced, may also be in breach of any insurance cover, should any 'incident' occur!

This I tried to explain, would require almost every commercially endorsed Skipper to apply individually to every local authority covered by the Solent Standing Committee. His responce was to the affect that it was his responsibility to apply the law, not decide it.

[Jon Brooks]

Sorry Alan

If I read it right and please correct me if wrong if you run a powerboat school either based on or visiting the IOW you must have their boatman licence?

On the Thames I know you must have a boatman licence for passengers but did not think you did as a school.

Regards

[alant1]

Hi Jon,
Any vessel operating in Cowes (not necessarily based there), must be licenced - by them or coded appropriately by MCA. This seems sensible.

However, under his enterpretation of the Solent Standing Committee rules, anyone "in charge" of the vessel, must hold their Boatman's Licence. This is irrespective of any other qualifications they might hold.
I suggested that this applied to almost all commercial skippers visiting Cowes, SunSail etc & he stated they all should hold a Boatmans Licence & could also apply to the Master of the QE11 should he operate with 12 passengers.

This was drawn to my attention by another ribnet poster - Stuart of Lynx Sports, who has had similar problems with Cowes licencing.

I have an RYA Ocean (sail/power), RYA Advance Powerboat, both commercially endorsed, am a Boatmaster Grade 1, have operated in the Solent for longer than I want to admit, but will now be operating illegally if I take a vessel (charter or school) anywhere under his jurisdiction.

How can these rules allow vessels (coded by MCA) to be operated, but not the skippers (Commercially endorsed by MCA)?

[Jon Brooks]

I agree that any boat carrying paying passengers should be MCA coded and the skipper should have the right quals (cat4 rib Advanced Powerboat with Commercial Endors)

The but that seems odd is the sea school boats.
School boats do not have to be coded and then person using them does not have to be comm endo so why are they insisting school boats have this licence?

Regards

[Pete7]

John, I think they are insisting on all boats on charter

However just spoken with Mark at the MCA (Ribnet member) and he has offered to investigate this, and hopefully come back to us with a positive answer.

Pete

[SDGANDER]

Maybe I m misreading this but the Yachtmaster is issued by the RYA on behalf of the MCA and my Boatmaster Licence was issused by the MCA after an examination by an MCA examiner - therefore surely both are valid to meet their requirements?

Also the MCA wasnt around in 1904 so not sure how they can apply a law to that!

Still with all the Red Funnel Masters, etc I m sure there will be a big queue for their licence application desk!

Also would like to know what qualification their examiner holds...

SDG.

[alant1]

Have discussed this with Edmund Whelan, RYA Legal guru.
He stated that some other Local Authority tried something similar many years ago & got sunk.

IOW Gareth Davies was adamant, that there were no exemptions in regard to qualifications.

Haven't contacted Cowes Harbour Commissioners yet!
Wonder how they would react if every commercial boat stayed away?

[Pete7]

Alan, wouldn't worry too much. Page 5 paragraph 4

http://www.nfdc.gov.uk/media/adobe/j/f/shmac_NFDC.pdf

the current list of licence holders isn't exactly extensive either, mainly Island folk.

http://www.iwight.com/licensing/publicregisterlist.aspx

Pete

[John Kennett]

Curious. That pdf appears to show that IOW County Council isn't a licencing authority anyway.

John

[John Kennett]

OK, the New Forest DC version is out of date. I found the current one on the Portsmouth Port web site:

http://www.portsmouth-port.co.uk/pmsc/sashma05.pdf

It does show Isle of Wight District Council as a licensing authority. However it still says (and this is the wording that Pete7 alluded to):

"A licence under this section shall not be required for any boat or vessel duly licensed by or under any regulations of the Marine & Coastguard Agency (or for a person in charge of or navigating such a boat or vessel)."

Which I think makes it pretty clear that that the Local Authority licences are local alternatives to full MCA coding, not an additional requirement. I suppose it's possible that the Isle of Wight Council has some byelaw that applies, but I think that's pretty unlikely.

This assumes that it's the skipper of an MCA coded boat we're talking about, not someone wanting to use their existing qualifications instead of a Boatman's Certificate for a Local Authority registered boat. If that's the case then these are the exemptions:

"Persons holding a current MCA Certificate of Competency for Deck Officers, RYA Yacht master or Coastal Skipper Certificate, MCA Boat Master's Certificate or other higher qualifications shall be exempt from all parts of the examination except that some licensing authorities may wish to examine all applicants on local knowledge."

Either way the advice appears to be wrong!

John

[Andy Gee]

We had a very similar thing up here with Inverclyde Council. Previously, before the MCA CoP's our boats were licenced by the old Inverclyde District Council. When the MCA codes came out we transfered to them and then the Council wrote to us telling us that we were operating illegally as we did not have their licence.
After much tooing and froing we contacted the MCA at Southampton who advised us that regardless of what the Council was saying we were operating vessels under a Load Line Exemption and therefor could operated anywhere that we wanted within the code limits. The MCA wrote to the Council advising them of this and it all went away.
Strangley enough the never asked about the manning .
Sounds like Cowes is trying on much the same thing.
Andy

[tim griffin]

Interesting thread

I run a RYA School and charter my rib
I have my Boatmans licence
I also have the following Commercial Endorsements to Advanced Powerboat and Yachtmaster Power and I am based in Cowes Isle of Wight and must display my boat's Licence and produce my boatmans licence if asked to do so by the Isle of Wight County Council Inspectors .I also skipper MCA coded boats
Never had a problem never heard of a problem .

[tim griffin]

Just a thought but has the confusion arisen between the Council thinking that you wish your boat to operate under the solent standing committee rules if that is the case then the Isle of Wight Council as a issuing Authority will require you to have a local authority licence for you boat and a local authority boatmans licence to operate it . How ever if you are operating a MCA coded boat and hold MCA endorsed qualifications then you don't need local authority boat licence or boatmans licence.

Just a thought
Tim

[alant1]

That currently is where the confusion is.

According to Gareth Davies, his reading of the Standing Committee Rules, still gives Local Authorities Licencing jurisdiction, even for MCA Commercially endorsed skippers on MCA coded vessels. Insisting that all should have Boatmans Licences.

However, a recent e-mail from him, after I copied him my e-mail to RYA Legal & him also receiving an e-mail from Mark Towl (MCA), suggests that he is now reconsidering his position.

Will post any new info.

[Ribald]

Any comments on this thread from YBW then folks?

[Miss Behaving]

My understanding on this subject is- If you have your boat liecensed through the council you have to have a boatmans liecence. I personally chose this route for chartering our Rib in the Solent area as the MCA codeing at the time was requireing a liferaft, I didn't want that expence and where do you put it! (herd a whisper this may have changed). I also hold RYA Advanced powerboat commercialy endorced.

May go MCA next year if you don't need a life raft as they seem to allow more persons on board. I can only accomodate 8 inc skipper, I know of MCA coded Cobra 8.5 with two less seats coded for 12 persons!!!

[Ribald]

For latest MCGA MGN280 see here

[Jimbob]

miss behaving

you dont have to have a boatmans licence, if you have a suitable level of qualification. i coded mine with Portsmouth, they have a few quals they will accept, however in principle they add up to the MCA/RYA commercial endorsements anyway