Commercial Licence?

[Naked Dave]

Can anyone give me the truth about Commercial Licences?
I have heard so many different stories and half truths, I'm not sure what to believe.

What exactly do you need, qualification wise? Powerboat Advanced? Dayskipper Theory? Membership in the Magic Circle??

So far I have My level 3(RYA Safety boater), VHF/SRC and Sea Survival.

Also, what are the changes coming into effect around Sepember/October this year and how do the affect potental operators like myself?

The MCA site is very confusing.......

[tim griffin]

from the instructors news letter
"Proposal for January 2005 Commercial endorsement of the existing Advanced course completion certificate to cease and be replaced by an exam. This will bring the Powerboat scheme into line with the cruising scheme" for commercial endorsement now you will need your advanced ticket, a sea survival ticket, a first aid, and vhf and undergo a M.C.A medical the porposals come into effect in possibly 2005 so should be no problem in gaining a commercial endorsement now if you have all the above , hope this helps.
regards
Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Ian]

It depends on where you want to operate as well. Can't you obtain a commercial ticket with a PB2 for upto 3 miles from an NDP? You could before the new changes therefore you wouldn't need your Advanced. You still need the other cert's though.

[tim griffin]

yes you can but that is used for local authority boatmans license
and as such it will restrict you in your operating area , if you want to work in the commercial field you must have your advanced ticket, with commercial endorsement no one will touch you without it the boatmans license is more for harbour launches
and taxi's it all boils down to what you want to do.
tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[tim griffin]

yes you can but that is used for local authority boatmans license
and as such it will restrict you in your operating area , if you want to work in the commercial field you must have your advanced ticket, with commercial endorsement no one will touch you without it the boatmans license is more for harbour launches
and taxi's it all boils down to what you want to do.
tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[DGR]

The draft MCA coding info (which will eventually replace the Yellow(?) and Brown(?) Codes) states that you need First Aid, Sea Survival, VHF and a valid medical certificate regardless of your PB qualifications.

You can get PB2 endorsed for Cat 6 waters (3 nmiles form an NDP) - providing that you have 12 months experience - in which experience isn't defined!!

For Cat 5 or above you need at least Advanced PB, but for the higher categories you might need further qualifications.

By far the biggest issue is the amount of stuff you need to carry (and buy) for your boat to get coded, even for Cat 6 waters. A life raft? Blimey...

Dylan...

[Pete7]

Think the liferaft for a commerical boat is quite valid. Afterall a petrol engined rib could just as likely catch fire as a fishing charter boat although paying £500 a year does hurt.


Pete

[Paul Glatzel]

Dave

According to the MCA’s revised small craft code the following is where it is at re commercial endorsements:

Firstly consider under what ‘Cat’ you will be operating

Area Category 6 - to sea, within 3 miles from a nominated departure point(s) named in the certificate and never more than 3 miles from land, in favourable weather and daylight;

Area Category 5 - up to 20 miles from a nominated departure point named in the certificate in favourable weather and daylight.

Area Category 4 - Up to 20 miles from a safe haven, in favourable
weather and in daylight;

Area Category 3 - Up to 20 miles from a safe haven;

Area Category 2 - Up to 60 miles from a safe haven;(N/A for RIBs)

Area Category 1 - Up to 150 miles from a safe haven; (N/A for RIBs)

Area Category 0 – Unrestricted service. (N/A for RIBs)

The qualifications are valid as per below:

This document explains what you need to endorse the certificate:




So if you have Level 2 you can commercially endorse it, whether you want to get Advanced will depend on your intended area of operation.

As Tim rightly states it is changing from Jan 2005 and you will no longer be able to commercially endorse the Advanced but will need to sit an exam (theory & practical) instead.

Hope this helps

Paul

PS: There are a number of similar threads on this subject so worth a search for.

[DGR]

...I agree, but doesn't it depend what you are doing with the boat?

If you are running a charter, 20 nmiles off the coast, then yes, completely agree, liferafts all round.

BUT - a couple of people, in Cat 6 waters, in a tidal estuary, not far from land, everyone in life jackets anyway, etc, etc, etc? Not convinced.

Also, the RIBs that I've done courses on (in the last 18 months) didn't have ANY of the MCA coding kit on - and certainly no life raft - but unless I've misunderstood the new regs (which is a distinct possiblity!!), they will soon have to.

Dylan...

[Redbay Rover]

What about the new intermediate powerboat course? Which catergory will that allow you to operate in?

[Paul Glatzel]

Redbay

You will not be able to commercially endorse the Intermediate

Paul

[Pete7]

Dylan, I hear what your saying but I was out in Solent on Sunday and there wasn't a lot of other people around.

Also would you want your wife or children going to sea on a commerical boat trip without a liferaft or in date and inspected lifejackets ?

Finally the small charter fishing boats have generally got there act together on the south coast. They are not going to let anyone with a rib turn up and take there percieved business away with a boat that doesn't meet statutary requirements. By the same token a rib charter company who is playing by the rules will be more expensive than someone just doing it for pin money without coding. If that was your business would you allow someone to undercut you who isn't playing by the rules ?

By the way you also need a barometer, although got knows what for and they are not exactly reknown for being water proof but the surveyor checked to see if I had one.

Pete

[Seb]

I completed my Advanced PB last week and am will be getting it commercially endorsed which, according to the instructor means that i will also need the following:

VHF operators certificate
Sea survival training
1st aid training
Medical examination

As far as i have understood, this will then need to be checked by the RYA and stamped. This will then mean that the commercial endorsement will be valid for 3 years and upon renewal, a refresher course will have to be sat in sea survival and first aid along with another medical.

I have also been told that the commercial endorsement will allow me to operate a power driven vessel upto 25m LOA, day or night with paying passengers aboard.

Not sure if its all correct though.....everyone seems to have a different opinion!

Hope it helps.

[Ian]

Seb,
The commercial is valid for 5 years and a medical and in date 1st Aid cert is required to renew. The sea survival is a one off.
To do your Advanced you should have already have VHF and a valid 1st aid cert.
The ticket allows you to carry upto 12 fare paying passengers provided the vessel is coded for that number. An open rib can only be coded to operate upto 20 miles from a safe haven in daylight hours and good weather. The weather bit is upto the dicresion of the skipper.
Since I got my ticket at the end of last year I think the length of boat you can operate is changing or that may be something to do with the ICC, not sure.

Hope this helps

[tim griffin]

Ian hi
the icc will change for below and above 10metres
i think it is one of the more sensible ideas eg do your pb2 on a lets say 5.4 rib apply for your icc and it is issued for power up to
24 metres crazy!as for the intermediate i would have liked to have seen this as the icc .
Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Ian]

I'm with you on that. I got my ICC and couldn't believe I could charter a 74' boat (if I had the money), as my previous experience, strangely enough, had mostly been on a 5.4 Searider.

[quinquarimarine]

Many people find it quite bizare that passenger aircraft dont carry parachutes. Most of the time they are worthless but now and again they could save lives.

We treat with disgust when we find out that a newly qualified road driver has a serious accident and we blame it on lack of experience.

Thus

Liferafts are an essential piece of equipment. The cost of the raft is part of the customers price ticket and those that grumble at £500 per year have only 2 reasons. Firstly cost - then it is profit vs life ( the argument of only 3 miles/harbours does not apply as drowning is relative to many factors but not depth of water/distance from land.) Secondly is space. Well simply a small RIB, if it is licenced for 12, may need a smaller PAX designation. It is no excuse to mitigate a raft for PAX.

Experience is second to nothing except where the law is concerned. Rightly qualifications must be in place but a good operator will not look at the minimum required to satisfy regs. An endorsment of up to 24m will assume an time served seaman who is capable of understanding a complexity and diversity of craft and their operations, so, as an employer, I would look at qualification backed by serious aplication.

I have barked about this subject before but you either do the job properly or leave it alone. There is no half way house and those who have invested our life into the commercial operations will not be happy with slack rules.

On another note the harmonised codes are suggesting an investigation into dive club status to ensure that the boat is correctly outside of coded vessels. I understand that this will include detailed checks of formal club status etc and that if non members are carried then coding is required. Maybe worth some looking at for dive users.


Cheers

John Quinquari Marine
Voyages Of Discovery & Thousand Islands Expeditions

[Ian]

Very nicely put. Safety must come before all other considerations. Not only does the equipment need to be onboard it also needs to be in service/life date.

[Ian]

Originally posted by DGR
Also, the RIBs that I've done courses on (in the last 18 months) didn't have ANY of the MCA coding kit on - and certainly no life raft - but unless I've misunderstood the new regs (which is a distinct possiblity!!), they will soon have to.

Dylan...

RYA Training Centres ribs are not required to be MCA coded. The RYA have their own regulations for training ribs and as such are exempt from coding unless the rib is to be used for other purposes i.e. charter work.
I think, but stand to be corrected, that RYA Training Centre ribs can only be used in designated waters as stipulated for each centre by the RYA.

[Rogue Wave]

Yep. I would welcome much stricter qualification criteria for commercial drivers!

and the safety of passengers must be the first and biggest consideration to any maritime operation