Diabetics

[tim griffin]

Hi Daniel
your best bet would be to approach the MCA the office local to me is 023 8032 9100 they will be able to help and advise you, good luck and keep us posted.
regards Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[mike]

The mca were accused of being victorian by a pal of mine who like me is insulin dependant.

The whole subject has been researched by me in great depth.I have to say I feel it is fair to say they will consider the diabetic skipper but not solo in most cases.
The bottom line is that a decision has to be made, people who are in authority do not like being told that a yes no tick box is the way to go so I reccommend pushing it and challenging the old idea that a balanced diabetic is prone to,
not be able to resuscitate a casualty
crew the boat without hypo,
balance is poor and therefore unsafe if you have a cold or get cold etc etc etc.
The sooner we sort this obviously (well intended admittedly)outdated approach the better.

[Rupert Bear]

Originally Posted by Paul F

Jon
I thinkhe was not allowed to be an RYA Instructor(if passed course).Due to his current medical condition,as on course have to sign form to say medically fit and not suffering from any long term medical condition.
But check with Mike
Paul

I did the RYA instructor course some 4 or 5 years ago and although I never used it (I did it mainly for my own interest) I have never been told I couldn't use it for any reason.

[Mr-d]

Okay well, more diabetics on here than i thought! Time to post a poll in the general discussion

If we could get something set up between us, and approach the MCA, we could perhaps floor them or get into a good argument with them... Get attention drawn to it will help..

Mike, do you still have any of the info? if so, can you email it to me, i can stick it online for all of us to read..

Rupert, does this mean i can hire you to instruct me in advanced powerboat? hahaha

[Rupert Bear]

A campaign would be of little use as the official line is that any medical is carried out on a case by case basis. I would tend to agree with this as long as there was not a blanket ban on diabetes.
Confirming there isn't a blanket ban seems to be difficult.
You cannot successfully argue for every diabetic to be allowed to get a commercial medical and although I have IDDM I would be the first to object to a campaign to try and achieve this. This may seem strange but not every diabetic is capable of looking after themselves properly and taking away all the restrictions would end up eventually with them being put in place again for everyone.
I sucessfully argued my case for diving and even changed some UK policy after the rules were tightened up to ban diabetics from diving some time ago. By fighting for a case by case medical it was changed so that if you could prove you were fit you could dive.
I have been meaning to start on the MCA but have never got around to it other than preliminary questions, you see, I don't like being told I can't do something by a faceless official who doesn't know me when I know perfectly well I can

[Mr-d]

Rupert, you have hit the nail on the head... what you just said is 100% what i would stand for...

However, if the rules seem vague, we could always try to sort it out...
Perhaps a "specialist" assesement from an senior instructor, with diabetes? (my eyes are wandering into your direction..)

Same as with you, i dont like being told what i can and cant do on the basis of me having a condition that the people dont really understand..

Best thing in this situation i think is to clear it all up and make a summery of the currect rules and how to work them.

Just a question, have you always been IDDM? Were you already diving before you got it? What i fear is that i wont be able to prove myself, as i have about.... 40 minutes of underwater "experience" in my life? with about 30 of that in a swimmingpool...

And powerboating, probably close to 5 hours operating myself, and 24 hours with other people operating it... (so im relatively new you could say..)

[Rupert Bear]

I was diagnosed about two years before starting diving. I started diving and only after a few months did I find out that a lot of folk thought I shouldn't be. By this time I knew enough to be sure I could so fought it.
After a number of years in the club system I qualified officially up to full trimix getting the rules changed to suit along the way where necessary. Now and for the last three years or so I dive where and when I want with folk I know mostly using my own boat or with folk from clubs I have met along the way on hardboat trips.

[mike]

my business Is going down the tubes next year as the MCA in their wisdom have decided that even catagorised waters require an ML5.

The position is that 100% of diabetics are refused solo skippering (I know because I have phoned them) They dressed it up saying well write in etc key mitigations etcany supporting evidence etc etc.

Angry does not even begin to touch on how I feel, This is a totally floored system where 20 years without hypos apparently adds up to the same as a person diagnosed last week ie FLAT REFUSAL.

I have decided to ask the mca why there is a blanket refusal, why also are we required to jump through the hoops and pay for an ml5 if at the end of the day they ignore what the gp says.

sorry about the rant I really am pxxxxd off with the situation.

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by mike

my business Is going down the tubes next year as the MCA in their wisdom have decided that even catagorised waters require an ML5.

The position is that 100% of diabetics are refused solo skippering (I know because I have phoned them) They dressed it up saying well write in etc key mitigations etcany supporting evidence etc etc.

Angry does not even begin to touch on how I feel, This is a totally floored system where 20 years without hypos apparently adds up to the same as a person diagnosed last week ie FLAT REFUSAL.

I have decided to ask the mca why there is a blanket refusal, why also are we required to jump through the hoops and pay for an ml5 if at the end of the day they ignore what the gp says.

sorry about the rant I really am pxxxxd off with the situation.

Best they don't copme on to me asking for any favours!!!

Regards

[Paul Glatzel]

Jon

I don't pretend to have any relevant experience particulalry in this area but i would have thought that a challange based on the Disability Discrimination Act http://www.disability.gov.uk/dda/#part1 might have some basis. Would not an organisation such as http://www.diabetes.org.uk/ be very keen to back such an approach?

Of course it would be time consuming & hard work but it is often only by one persons dogged determination that rules are changed to become more flexible

Paul

[Rupert Bear]

If you read the definition and exemptions it specifically excludes ships and aircraft, unfortunately.

[mike]

HELP!!

I have now been to my specialist and to my gp. I have not had one of these spontaneous hypos that the mca seem obsessed with for 13 years.

My GP specialist and licencing authority have all stated that I had no difficulty in conducting the business over the last season and that they saw and can see no circumstance where I could not perform my duty of care.

I have also looked into the Survival at sea course required to skipper a boat and this is the only measure for able or other skippers to prove that they can evacuate to and from a liferaft. naturally I passed this as well.

I am going to push this as far as possible is there and ammo that anyone can suggest? this is my list so far.

No hypos for 13 years,
passed all their standards no problem,
have letters from people who actually know my health and they say no problem,
Have actually done this business for solo (including launches )for over a year and have over 500 solo hours afloat.

anything else??
thanks Mike

[Rupert Bear]

This all sounds very interesting. My workplace, which uses small boats, has said I can use them as the reason for pushing for a medical.
I also have a Sea Survival cert and medically am in the same position as yourself it seems.
I suppose I better get my A**e in gear and start the ball roling, ie put out the £60 odd quid for the medical as well.

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by mike

HELP!!
.anything else??
thanks Mike

mmmmm let me think, have you jumped through a hoop of fire?

Is very frustrating though.
I can drive a front line ambulance (on blues and two and I do and have done since I was 21)
I can drive the Medical at a racing circuit. (and I do)
I can teach people to climb, lead hill walking and mountian walking parties.
Teach first aid and other medical stuff.
I join the police force, be a fireman, an ambulance man or even a first class radio salesman
I could, if I put my mind to it be a doctor but can I be a powerboat instructor? or hold a commercial endorsment?

Regards

[DM]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

I can drive a front line ambulance (on blues and two and I do and have done since I was 21)

As an IDDM, you can't drive on blues and two's or any other operational duties for the professional NHS paramedic services. I believe the same applies to the Fire service.

DM

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

As an IDDM, you can't drive on blues and two's or any other operational duties for the professional NHS paramedic services. I believe the same applies to the Fire service.

DM

Dave

Yes I can, each case is taken and looked into.
I know of at least 3 IDDM working, on front line duties for an ambulance service.

Each service deals with it in a diff way.

Regards

Jon

[Rupert Bear]

The proviso being that you can't IF you are just starting out as you cannot drive a vehicle over 3500kg unless you can make a case that you were alreasy doing it and it is for work purposes.
I had licence group taken off me which meant I couldn't technically drive a 110 Landie unless I had it replated to 3499kg

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by Rupert Bear

The proviso being that you can't IF you are just starting out as you cannot drive a vehicle over 3500kg unless you can make a case that you were alreasy doing it and it is for work purposes.
I had licence group taken off me which meant I couldn't technically drive a 110 Landie unless I had it replated to 3499kg

Most ambulance now (van conversions) are less than 3500 fully kitted.
This is why there are so many about now.
Not for the diabetics but for the younger recruits.

The Renault Master conversion designed by the St John's and now copied by many County Ambulances Services was specifcally designed to be under 3500 fully kitted.

Us old gits do not have to worry about it.
If you can make a good case for needing it with back up paper work they will not remove it from your licence.

Regards

[DM]

Originally Posted by Jon Brooks

Each service deals with it in a diff way.

Oh right. I didn't know that. Which NHS service have you driven on blues and twos for? I've only worked for one service(26 years + 8 in the Fire service)) but have been seconded to three others none of which allowed IDDM to work in the field. The insurance implications of a known IDDM suffering a hypo while driving a four ton vehicle at speeds exceeding 100mph are frightening.

But I do know how you feel as my crewmate and best friend of eight years walked in for the start of his shift at 8am one morning, informed the boss that he had been diagnosed as insulin dependent and thirty minutes later was removed from operations and sent to work in the control centre where he is to this day.

DM

[Jon Brooks]

Can't speak for the fire service.
Insurance companies are not allowed to load against diabetics and have not for many years.
With the change in the disability law last week the emergency services were targeted to allow diabetics, amoungst others, to work for them in an active role.
Only people who escaped were the armed forces.

There is no reason that a well controlled diabetic should not be able to perform as well as others.

Were I was first diagnosed back in '83 it was not as easy as it is now to have a good effective control.

Yes very frustrating!

Jon