Double Registered

[andywilliams]

Hi all. Hope someone can help! I’ll keep it as short as possible.
I own a small powerboat and it is stored on a private swing mooring in summer.
I allow a Ltd Outdoor Adventure business to occasionally use my boat for charters from their own facilities on the lake and they lease the boat off me for this purpose.
They got their commercial hire licence for the vessel for this purpose and that is ‘attached’ to their own commercial premises and jetties.
The vessel is double registered and therefore has both a private registration number, and a commercial registration number for when in use for charters.
All above board and by the book, but the local wardens now want me to pay for a commercial mooring for the vessel instead of a private mooring.
The vessel ONLY conducts commercial activities from the Businesses’ facilities under the commercial registration number.
Otherwise we just use it personally ourselves from the mooring.
What do you think? Same vessel yes, but use/insurance/registration is split . Do I need to pay for a commercial mooring?
Thanks!

[Steve509926]

A few of things spring to mind.

If the Adventure Company have a jetty, can't you moor your vessel there and negate the need for a "commercial" mooring.

If the Adventure Company wish to continue using your boat, ask them to pay for the commercial mooring.

Terminate the agreement with the Adventure Company and revert back to 100% private mooring.

[Dry Run]

Is there a significant price difference? Is it going to make that much difference to you?

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by Dry Run

Is there a significant price difference? Is it going to make that much difference to you?

£1850 vs £750. Unfortunately.

[andywilliams]

Agreed, the company could pay the extra. The vessel can’t be left in their jetties overnight. They just take it for say; two 2 hr trips on nice days where we aren’t using it. And yes I could just stop the arrangement. I’m more looking for what actually constitutes the necessity for a commercial mooring in the first place. Seems to just be a ‘rule’ that isn’t actually stated anywhere. It’s a sports boat. Not a commercial boat. So the way I see it, it’s just a private boat with a commercial licence when it’s operated from the commercial premises. Even the insurance specifically doesn’t cover commercial activity directly FROM the private mooring..
I’ll get it paid if I must, I just can’t find anyone to say why.
Thanks for response.

[willk]

You are gaining financially from commercial activity on your boat. It has a commercial Reg. Commercial boats pay (if I read your post correctly) a larger mooring fee. You are unable to find a rule specific enough to address the rather unusual registration arrangement you have visited upon yourself, but that's not entirely surprising. I expect the wardens are exercising their discretion by following the money. I find the world roughly divided into two camps of people, one complaining that there are too many fussy petty rules and another busily looking for loopholes and workarounds in the Rule Book, necessitating even more rules to be created to address their activities.

Curious first post on RIBnet from a bloke with a hardboat BTW. Did you come for a moan?

[beamishken]

I guess whoever oversees the use of the lake also make the rules, obviously they want to collect as much as possible & you pay as little as possible. It makes sense they would go for the higher figure as it might encourage others to follow suit & double register vessels to avoid commercial mooring rates. One solution may be to suggest you keep a log of hours of use for both commercial & none commercial use & put it to them that you pro rata the fees depending on use. Eg 30% commercial hours use attracts fees split 30/70 commercial v private. Maybe worth a try
Which lake btw?

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by willk

You are gaining financially from commercial activity on your boat. It has a commercial Reg. Commercial boats pay (if I read your post correctly) a larger mooring fee. You are unable to find a rule specific enough to address the rather unusual registration arrangement you have visited upon yourself, but that's not entirely surprising. I expect the wardens are exercising their discretion by following the money. I find the world roughly divided into two camps of people, one complaining that there are too many fussy petty rules and another busily looking for loopholes and workarounds in the Rule Book, necessitating even more rules to be created to address their activities.

Curious first post on RIBnet from a bloke with a hardboat BTW. Did you come for a moan?

No, no moaning! But I feel like you’re looking for an argument for some reason!? But that’s ok! I DO have a RIB as well though, just a tender and nothing to rave about there. Any “benefit” is negligible, more an arrangement between friends that ended up needing insurance for “clients” , then progressed to another hire licence, then a mooring, then before you know it, double registered! I’m JUST looking for the elusive “rule” book and thought this forum might have someone with something official. That’s all!! Promise!
Ps- “HARDBOATER” is defo going on a t-shirt now!

[Fenlander]

>>>I’ll get it paid if I must, I just can’t find anyone to say why.

Without linking the mooring fees plus terms and conditions of the specific lake, assuming they are online, no-one on here can really add to the why.

My gut feeling is that the moment you step over the fence to any degree of commercial use you'd attract the higher fees. So it is in many areas of life.

It's simple enough though along the lines others above have said... If you make enough in a year from the occasional hire to cover the fee then just pay it, if you don't then ask the commercial guys to pay, if they won't then stop hiring out.

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I guess whoever oversees the use of the lake also make the rules, obviously they want to collect as much as possible & you pay as little as possible. It makes sense they would go for the higher figure as it might encourage others to follow suit & double register vessels to avoid commercial mooring rates. One solution may be to suggest you keep a log of hours of use for both commercial & none commercial use & put it to them that you pro rata the fees depending on use. Eg 30% commercial hours use attracts fees split 30/70 commercial v private. Maybe worth a try
Which lake btw?

Good idea ! Thanks

[willk]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

if they won't then stop hiring out.

...or as in all things commercial, raise your rates to cover the mooring costs.

[Pikey Dave]

Cake & eat it spring to mind. If those are the rules of the game, you either need to play by the rules or change your game. Probably not the answer you seek. We’ve had people come here before trying to play the system and get away with making money from non-commercially registered boats. In your case, you’re already registered as commercial, so you don’t really have the proverbial leg to stand on.
P.S “Can’t take my eyes off of you”

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Cake & eat it spring to mind. If those are the rules of the game, you either need to play by the rules or change your game. Probably not the answer you seek. We’ve had people come here before trying to play the system and get away with making money from non-commercially registered boats. In your case, you’re already registered as commercial, so you don’t really have the proverbial leg to stand on.
P.S “Can’t take my eyes off of you”

Love where this is all going! The point is I’M NOT commercially registered. The boat now is.
NOT trying to screw any rules here.
The boat is mine and private and on a private mooring.
The Outdoor Adv company approached me later as they are in the same bay, with the idea of using my boat as a charter.
I said ok as i know them, but they’ll likely need a Commercial Hire Licence. They got one and as it MUST be attached to a Commercial Premises they obviously put their address for boathouses and jetties.
IM not conducting any business. And as they already pay for access to lake, launching facilities etc, I wasn’t sure whether I should accept being told to turn my private mooring into a “commercial” one.
No cake, no eating, and I’ll just stop our arrangement if it’s not worth it given i only use it privately.
My “issue” is that i just wanted to see what the rules were governing such activity and I’ll follow suit!
The Lake Wardens say its “not their rule, its the council” and the council say “it’s not our rule it’s the lake wardens”. Just left me wondering where the rule book is! Thats all.

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by andywilliams

Love where this is all going! The point is I’M NOT commercially registered. The boat now is.
NOT trying to screw any rules here.
The boat is mine and private and on a private mooring.
The Outdoor Adv company approached me later as they are in the same bay, with the idea of using my boat as a charter.
I said ok as i know them, but they’ll likely need a Commercial Hire Licence. They got one and as it MUST be attached to a Commercial Premises they obviously put their address for boathouses and jetties.
IM not conducting any business. And as they already pay for access to lake, launching facilities etc, I wasn’t sure whether I should accept being told to turn my private mooring into a “commercial” one.
No cake, no eating, and I’ll just stop our arrangement if it’s not worth it given i only use it privately.
My “issue” is that i just wanted to see what the rules were governing such activity and I’ll follow suit!
The Lake Wardens say its “not their rule, its the council” and the council say “it’s not our rule it’s the lake wardens”. Just left me wondering where the rule book is! Thats all.

ie- I don’t have a Commercial Licence for the boat. Should I accept paying for a Commercial mooring?
They have already paid to commercially registered the boat at their own facilities and operate from there.
It’s just a discussion to see what people think!

[Pikey Dave]

“The vessel is double registered and therefore has both a private registration number, and a commercial registration number for when in use for charters.”

Am I missing something??

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

“The vessel is double registered and therefore has both a private registration number, and a commercial registration number for when in use for charters.”

Am I missing something??

Not missing anything.

I find myself in the position where I have a private reg for the boat,

And ANOTHER company has a commercial reg for the SAME boat. They use their own facilities for business purposes.

The two registrations are in different names.

The wardens are now asking that my private mooring should now be classified as a comm mooring. But the mooring is only used for private use.

I assumed that perhaps someone had some sort of “UK lakes and waterways “ rule book . Within which MIGHT just be the definition of what classifies as a comm mooring. As both the Wardens AND Council have nothing .

[Fenlander]

>>>some sort of “UK lakes and waterways “ rule book

I assume this is Windermere?

I think the only information/rules of any use would be that provided by the council and the Lake management Committee plus the current sub committee working on a review of the whole charging structure. Perhaps contact with the sub committee would be useful to at least raise the foot in both camps aspect of your arrangement and see if it is something that's received consideration.

[andywilliams]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

>>>some sort of “UK lakes and waterways “ rule book

I assume this is Windermere?

I think the only information/rules of any use would be that provided by the council and the Lake management Committee plus the current sub committee working on a review of the whole charging structure. Perhaps contact with the sub committee would be useful to at least raise the foot in both camps aspect of your arrangement and see if it is something that's received consideration.

Thanks

[Fenlander]

https://westmorlandandfurness.modern...ng%20DRAFT.pdf

[scrambler]

Originally Posted by andywilliams

Do I need to pay for a commercial mooring

Yes.
Seems crystal clear to me. If I was another commercial operator on the lake paying commercial rate for a mooring I wouldn't be happy that the competition i.e. the Adventure company, had the use of a boat that was only paying the private use rate. Surely the arrangement can be perceived as a way to avoid paying the commercial rate and thereby reduce overheads.
In my view the wardens are being fair to all in charging you the commercial rate.