Fuel duty refund

[John Kennett]

< Split from Prosport thread JK >

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

If i'm to carry on doing Powerboat level 2's a £99 i need to buy another diesel rib

Once you've claimed the duty back on the petrol is there so much diffeenece in running costs?

John

[tim griffin]

fuel duty currently 47.1p not too bad to claim back can't run courses as cheap as Jono must be doing well at that price
regards tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Jono Garton]

I've never had any look claiming petrol duty back? C & E tell me its only for sailing club safety boats etc? Various people have told me otherwise but never managed to tell me how??

can anyone shed any light ? form numbers etc ?

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

can anyone shed any light ? form numbers etc ?

Try this as a starting point: http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/forms/ho27.pdf

[Jono]

..."Mineral Oil Reliefs Centre" on 0191 201 1740....
Unleaded/ Diesel are part of the "Mineral Oil classification".
Give 'em a call!
Cheers, Jono (The other one)

[tim griffin]

Jono
you need HO50 FORM AND NOTICE 263 last issued/updated May 2000
all explained in there and you can claim upto 3 years back minimum is £250 in excise duty so just sticki it in at end of season and nice cheque in post
regards tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Rogue Wave]

Tim do you claim duty back on all the fuel you buy for the boats or are their ant terms and conditions attached to the relief..

I must get it together to do this ( i hate forms) as our fuel burn last year was over 7k and that's a lot of Duty

[roohairy]

Keep good records! They get suspicious of people who burn large amounts of petrol, think we may be using it in our cars! Found out by accident that a friend was the subject of an undercover investigation to confirm his usage, only had a 15Hp outboard on a 16' lobster boat. He never knew anything about it.

[Matt]

This is interesting, especially with the guzzling habit I've got.
So are you saying it is technically possible for me to claim duty back, or only if I'm a commercial user? What defines commercial? I burn so much petrol it would make sense to start a company purely for refuelling the boat!

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by MadMat

I burn so much petrol it would make sense to start a company purely for refuelling the boat!

Go on, Mat, give it a go. I was down Caledonian Road yesterday checking out your new home!

[Matt]

Nothing wrong with having a 'promotional' vessel is there?
I'm aware of a number of people who've had promotional vehicles for marketing purposes.

But seriously, it seems to be a topic shrouded in so much myth and mystery, I haven't got a clue what the real requirements are, so I really am asking, rather than just tekkin the piss like normal.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by MadMat

it seems to be a topic shrouded in so much myth and mystery...

Not really. When you register a company, you nominate a category of business. I use "7222 - Other software consultancy and supply" as it's appropriate to what I do. I don't think that there's a category for "fuel scams" . Also, you need to show an income to cover expenditure. This is commonly known as "keeping accounting records". This all builds up a picture of your business. The Inland Revenue and other tax collecting agencies are very well informed when it comes to phoney companies - a friend of mine specialises in looking into such details. Customs and Excise are even more astute.

However, if there's a scam to be done, I'm sure someone will share it here publicly

[Matt]

I am aware of how to start a company. Claiming duty back, most people come up with the 'safety boats only' line, or just not possible. This thread is the first one I've ever seen with documentary evidence that it's technically possible. [joke mode] You mentioned scam first, but if you are, or ever have been, an IT contractor, you'd know all about that. [/joke mode] Wot Ho!!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Also, you need to show an income to cover expenditure. This is commonly known as "keeping accounting records".

There's no law to say that your business needs to be profitable though!

John

[Rogue Wave]

I'd jsut like to say hello to all the nice members who work for the Revenue and Customs and Excise

[Cookee]

I claimed duty back on petrol when I was doing charter work - Thinking that now I am a boat builder and racing is part of the promotional side of things it wouldn't hurt to keep reciepts for the fuel - you never know!

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Tim do you claim duty back on all the fuel you buy for the boats or are their ant terms and conditions attached to the relief..

I must get it together to do this ( i hate forms) as our fuel burn last year was over 7k and that's a lot of Duty

for charter work and tuition yes get the forms and its all explained in there or call them , they are very friendly really , and in your case if you can prove your work then should be able to claim back three years worth, and that should amount to alot of money
from the booklet " 1.5 . if you own or charter a private pleasure craft you cannot claim releif.How ever, if you have a business which hires out vessels then you may be able to claim releif where the vessel is used for pleasure purposes.For example ,as long as you comply with other requirements of this notice , you can claim releif on:
marine voyages of boats used for pleasure trips
marine voyages of boats hired out for diving fishing and water skiing ect
carrying fare paying passengers and/or appropriate equipment and/or providing specialised services

example below of hires and eligibility for releif
if you hire out a boat with crew you can claim releif on the fuel used

so charter boats qualify and tuition is a specialised service that people pay for
so that also qualifies
hope this helps

"tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Steve Stamper]

Commercially, I have done this...Its all about making your best endevours to prove your case. Dont put in claim after claim, only to have to refund all of it because you were wrong.

If in doubt, find out.

If the boat is passed as a capital asset you will be allowed to certain commercial benefits. Depreciation running costs, maintenance, improvements associated equipment etc.etc etc.Depending on your declaration of use. The more you spend on the boat, the less tax you pay. Oh so you're sitting up now!

Of course if you use it personally , or, it is avaialable for you to use, you are recieving benefits in Kind. That is personal tax issue. Have evidence of your 'other' personal boat and running costs to disprove this. If you can, prove that you have a domestic boat ( or part share even) and that you have receipts for running that boat. You have a stronger case.

Keep a running log for your commercial boat and that way you can prove what you spent where it went and the reason for it. Do it at the time though.

Historical records of detail are hard to discredit and for the costs you recover its well worth wielding the pen.

If the company boat is not stored at home thats part of the problem solved. You can, accademically prove that the company provides its own storage. Rent a garage from the council, at 5 quid a week its worth it. Or keep it in a marina send the marina a letter (keep a copy ) instructing them that on no account is the boat to be released other than for business.

For a large boat, the company may use the boat as an office, it would need phones fax etc.

Navigation equipment and fuel would be struck out, but depreciation berthing and upkeep would be allowed.

Otherwise if you can demonstrate that in you're line of business it is a tool. Perhaps your workmanship is on display and people have used your services because of this.

If your company take's it to events and runs it about in front of the crowds with the company name down the side.Then it is a marketing overhead. One company wrote the their name ALL the way down the side of its 72ft canal boat. Probably just for the photo shoot. a picture on the office wall for the tax mans benefit. Some Narrows I have seen just put it on a plaque.

All costs incurred in the latter two are recoverable.

Neither take you into chartering or commercial territory

You even could become beneficiaries of a trust, and use the trusts assets anonymously.

PM me for more

[DGR]

Hypothetically, what would happen if I had a commercial asset (i.e. a RIB), but I then decided to use it for personal use when it wasn't 'working'.

If I kept detailed records separating out business and personal use, can you claim the benefit on the commercial operation as a proportion of usage?

I.e. (simple example) out 'working' for 9 days, go for a blast for 1 day at the weekend, i.e. 90% is 'business', 10% is pleasure etc.

I have heard that some company car schemes work in this way - would boats be treated differently?

D...

[Steve Stamper]

Originally Posted by DGR

Hypothetically, what would happen if I had a commercial asset (i.e. a RIB), but I then decided to use it for personal use when it wasn't 'working'.

If I kept detailed records separating out business and personal use, can you claim the benefit on the commercial operation as a proportion of usage?

I.e. (simple example) out 'working' for 9 days, go for a blast for 1 day at the weekend, i.e. 90% is 'business', 10% is pleasure etc.

I have heard that some company car schemes work in this way - would boats be treated differently?

D...

I am only an amatuer but I think you'd be better off doing it the other way round meself.

Doin it your way, it is possible that all emplyee's with access to the boat may encounter personal tax liabilties for enjoying the right (not the boat itself) to boat. Whether they / you do it or not. If it was feasable that's enough.

If you let the company use 'your boat', and keep records, it cant happen.

You'd need to negotitate, what the tax man will need to see, to support your claim that on the days you claim it went out on business.

I would check the following with them:-

Any costs you could seperate out 'beyond all reasonable doubt' to being soley used fort he business purpose, you should be allowed to just expend on the day on the company cheque book. I have a fuel account in the company name.

Repairs and renewals costs could be apportioned using your kept records of proportional use and submitted for agreement at the end of the year.

New additional equipment, that is not a necessity to the business on the boat would not get allowed.

The date you could claim from would be the date that you could prove your proportional business / personal use from.

provide some supplementary pictures of the boat on its working days.



Steve

PS GET IT IN WRITING.