Passenger Liability Limits

[PeterM]

Question to any commercial operators .

Is anyone aware of a minimum legal Liability limit or cover per passenger on commercially operated vessels ?

Cars I'm fine with
Aircraft I'm fine with

Boats ..I'm not sure - I'm seeing different quotes all over the place.

As I've always said marine isn't a speciality of mine, but its come up in conversation today and its got me interested.

Pete

[C2 RIBS]

Think we discussed before as £100,000 per person max, So Ten pax takes to max cover needed

can check with our agents if needed

[PeterM]

Thanks Ian - that would be great if you could - At £100k per passenger and most commercial RIBS under the small boat coding with a max of 12 PAX would be a £1.2m limit - as most run with at least £2m ( if not more ) - so any policy would more than cover it - but I'm just personally interested now as a comparison to aircraft (at 125k per pax and cars where the RTA means it's unlimited - I think the max paid to date was around £22m to one passenger! )

Pete

[John Kennett]

According to MGN280 there doesn't appear to be a legal requirement to have insurance but "Local authorities may, for instance, have powers to require vessels to have passenger liability and third-party insurance cover, and to set the level of that cover."
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-use-for-sport

Looking at a few local authority sites £2m seems to be a common figure, although some are higher. Weymouth and Portland Borough Council recommend £10m and require at least £5m.

[PeterM]

Thanks John, that was my understanding too. But am seeing some reference to class A vessels that carry over 12 passengers. ...so outside the coding req and into big ship territory. ....

Of course when you get to that you are into legal requirements in SDR...same as aircraft....

Pete

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

According to MGN280 there doesn't appear to be a legal requirement to have insurance but "Local authorities may, for instance, have powers to require vessels to have passenger liability and third-party insurance cover, and to set the level of that cover."
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-use-for-sport

Looking at a few local authority sites £2m seems to be a common figure, although some are higher. Weymouth and Portland Borough Council recommend £10m and require at least £5m.

Thats interesting for Weymouth, My recollection of Olympic cover was they wanted or Olympic authorities wanted £10mil and when we investigated insurers stated this was a waste of money due to max payment per passenger allowed under laws making as Peter says about £2m as a standard. Most operators have more but none to my knowledge will be permanently at £10m as you are wasting premium fees

[John Kennett]

Here are the Weymouth regs:

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Here are the Weymouth regs:

Looks like the local licensing is more restrictive than going MGN280 MCA cat coding, I can work there with my craft all Cat3(r) and do not carry £10m and remain fully licensed, fully insured for all commercial operations

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Thanks John, that was my understanding too. But am seeing some reference to class A vessels that carry over 12 passengers. ...so outside the coding req and into big ship territory. ....

Of course when you get to that you are into legal requirements in SDR...same as aircraft....

Pete

I don't know if any RIB operations would come under the Athens Convention but it looks like there's a requirement for insurance of at least 250,000 SDR per passenger which is about £235,000 so £2m wouldn't be enough.

IMO | Athens Convention relating to the Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage by Sea (PAL)

Can you tell it's a quiet day here?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Thats interesting for Weymouth, My recollection of Olympic cover was they wanted or Olympic authorities wanted £10mil and when we investigated insurers stated this was a waste of money due to max payment per passenger allowed under laws making as Peter says about £2m as a standard. Most operators have more but none to my knowledge will be permanently at £10m as you are wasting premium fees

I *thought* Peter was saying he hadn't identified any statutory limit - in which case with no "upper limit" per Pax you might find £2m/12 is not enough?

There are limits in the Athens Convention but I think it only applies to international trips? http://www.3harecourt.com/Files/Arti...nts_at_sea.pdf

Even with that limit 12 x 300k (ish) is > £2M.

[C2 RIBS]

Peter, here is the officialdom


There is a thing called the Athens Convention which was held back in the 70’s but updated at a meeting in 2002 (held at the IMO in London). This sets out the minimum compulsory liability required as:

Compulsory insurance

A new Article 4bis of the Convention requires carriers to maintain insurance or other financial security, such as the guarantee of a bank or similar financial institution, to cover the limits for strict liability under the Convention in respect of the death of and personal injury to passengers.

The limit of the compulsory insurance or other financial security shall not be less than 250,000 Special Drawing Rights (SDR) (about US$325,000) per passenger on each distinct occasion. Ships are to be issued with a certificate attesting that insurance or other financial security is in force and a model certificate is attached to the Protocol in an Annex.

Limits of liability

The limits of liability have been raised significantly under the Protocol, to reflect present day conditions and the mechanism for raising limits in the future has been made easier.

The liability of the carrier for the death of or personal injury to a passenger is limited to 250,000 SDR (about US$325,000) per passenger on each distinct occasion.

The carrier is liable, unless the carrier proves that the incident resulted from an act of war, hostilities, civil war, insurrection or a natural phenomenon of an exceptional, inevitable and irresistible character; or was wholly caused by an act or omission done with the intent to cause the incident by a third party.

If the loss exceeds the limit, the carrier is further liable - up to a limit of 400,000 SDR (about US$524,000) per passenger on each distinct occasion - unless the carrier proves that the incident which caused the loss occurred without the fault or neglect of the carrier.

For the loss suffered as a result of the death of or personal injury to a passenger not caused by a shipping incident, the carrier is liable if the incident which caused the loss was due to the fault or neglect of the carrier. The burden of proving fault or neglect lies with the claimant.

The liability of the carrier only includes loss arising from incidents that occurred in the course of the carriage. The burden of proving that the incident which caused the loss occurred in the course of the carriage, and the extent of the loss, lies with the claimant.

Apologies for figures being in USD but since most UK insurers apply a minimum £3m limit to the third party liability section of the policy there shouldn’t be too many problems here. Interesting to note that the death benefit is capped . (that they have no liability if they can prove the incident is the result of war, hostilities, civil war or insurrection!)

[Poly]

Ian/Peter, The article I linked to earlier suggests the Athens Convention doesn't apply to domestic vessels (those not leaving UK waters). This appears to be wrong - Athens itself doesn't apply to domestic trips but the UK implementation does.

This may be interesting reading for some! ROSEMARY CAIRNS v. NORTHERN LIGHT HOUSE AND CALYPSO MARINE, 07 February 2013, Lord Drummond Young

It is a Scottish case so won't set absolute president in England but its possibly worth you digesting the section on Athens slowly (para 48 on). I've only skimmed it - but there are some interesting phrases in there which relate to the way this boat was chartered which I think if I read them right mean even if Athens did apply the user may have liabilities (outside the scope of Athens) it can pass back to the vessel operator! Might be worth checking your contracts!

And here is another rib case where Athens applied... http://www.greenwoods-solicitors.com...ew-issue-8.pdf

[ShinyShoe]

Does your £3m pound or whatever lump value also include costs for people not on board. So if you were to hit me out on my imaginary 12m rib with my 12pax while you are out with your 12pax and you maim mine and put all urs in the water and because the law said they didn't have to wear life jackets and they drown or are seriously injured then you might need at least twice as much as you needed for your own pax plus if I was injured I'm going to argue Athens doesn't apply and you are fully liable without limit and I want all my money...

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Poly

.....absolute president in England

That'll be Alex Salmond after next May

[PeterM]

Thanks all . from what I have read and understand ( And I think is in agreement on the posts on here) .

For a boat under the small boat coding - which all commercial ribs in the UK would be there is no legal max or min legal amount of cover per passenger ( either in SDRs or GBP ) .

For 'big boats' there is - but as I cant realistically see anyone of that nature on Ribnet I'm not getting into the Athens Convention.

In Shiney Shoes example the £3m ( or whatever you have ) could well include both passengers ( on the basis they are the 'public' and any other boat ( as they are the public) . I feel it would come down to the policy wording as to how the limit made up + of course 'property damage ' would need to come out of the £3m too !

Yes - once you get over the £3m the injured parties can come after anyone they like in a legal action ........happy news eh !!!

I remember reading the full Cairns/ northern light house case at the time and seem to recall it become an employers liability claim rather than a public liability ...but I cant be doing with reading it all again = so could remember wrongly .

Thanks Ian / JK / POLY - we are seeing interest things in liability claims ( ie big values that are only getting bigger being awarded )

Pete