PPR for commercial endorsement

[SDGANDER]

My point is that you can sit there with an open book and take the exam - hardly encourages learning does it! I see little point in taking an exam outside formal conditions - or is that the way it's done now? Maybe why there is a need to add bits on?

One of the MCA ticket that does cover the subjects - the MCA boat master - isn't included in the exemption, let allows substantially more passengers than 12 to be carried.

Imagine the outcry if everyone that has had a driving licence for years had to suddenly take another exam before reissue so they could carry on doing the job they have done for years...

But then the RYA is a business so I stand by my view and that of many I have spoken to that it will achieve little except generate income for the RYA.

SDG


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[Ruari 29]

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

My point is that you can sit there with an open book and take the exam - hardly encourages learning does it! I see little point in taking an exam outside formal conditions - or is that the way it's done now? Maybe why there is a need to add bits on?

One of the MCA ticket that does cover the subjects - the MCA boat master - isn't included in the exemption, let allows substantially more passengers than 12 to be carried.

Imagine the outcry if everyone that has had a driving licence for years had to suddenly take another exam before reissue so they could carry on doing the job they have done for years...

But then the RYA is a business so I stand by my view and that of many I have spoken to that it will achieve little except generate income for the RYA.

SDG

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Hello Sdgander,
Not sure if youve done the exam yet but I have and it would be hard to bluff the whole thing with a book infront of you, within the time allotted.

The exam does weed out the numptys....saying that I know a powerboat instructor who failed first go.

I think everyone would get more out of it in a class room environment.

It would have been better if it was launched and made non compulsory for the first year.

I got alot out of doing it but feel some areas could be shortened and were repetitive.
It reminded me of the large company elearning health and safety courses.

Ruari

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S using Rib.net

[SDGANDER]

Hi Ruari

No I haven't taken it and fortunately won't need to.

I m not suggesting you or anyone else is going to cheat but those who either don't already know or care to learn the regulations are likely going to take the easy option - maybe a 'team' effort if not the book?

Maybe schools (and again not pointing fingers at anyone here) should stop the zero to hero courses and or the MCA should require certified sea time on vessel type. I've had YM who claim to have worked on super yachts and don't have a clue about watch keeping because they have simply washed, cleaned and polished!

Maybe more surprise MCA inspections are the answer? Our last one would have caught out a lot of OOW let alone YM that don't know the regulation.

Maybe the answer is to simply lower the tonnage and size limits or completely remove the commercial endorsement and require Master 200 as minimum?

SDG

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

Hi Ruari

No I haven't taken it and fortunately won't need to.

I m not suggesting you or anyone else is going to cheat but those who either don't already know or care to learn the regulations are likely going to take the easy option - maybe a 'team' effort if not the book?

Maybe schools (and again not pointing fingers at anyone here) should stop the zero to hero courses and or the MCA should require certified sea time on vessel type. I've had YM who claim to have worked on super yachts and don't have a clue about watch keeping because they have simply washed, cleaned and polished!

Maybe more surprise MCA inspections are the answer? Our last one would have caught out a lot of OOW let alone YM that don't know the regulation.

Maybe the answer is to simply lower the tonnage and size limits or completely remove the commercial endorsement and require Master 200 as minimum?

SDG

I think you have slightly missed the point of the course.

It was identified that a large number of commercial skippers were unaware of their legal responsibilities and were running foul of the law. The PPR course intends to address this by giving skippers an overview of where to source this information. If a skipper chooses to cheat by letting his mate to tell him the answers and he later breaks the law he will face prosecution. Where as those who take the course/test honestly should find themselves better placed to follow the regulations in the first place.

In reply to your other comments

zero to hero courses include the required sea time and if run properly can produce very capable skippers.

What actually is the problem that you want to solve by introducing the cost and bureaucracy of surprise MCA inspections?

It's interesting that you place more trust in mariners who have bits of signed paper saying they have certified sea time and have undergone an oral exam than those who have been examined practically and demonstrated that they can deliver the goods in a boat.

[SDGANDER]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I think you have slightly missed the point of the course.

It was identified that a large number of commercial skippers were unaware of their legal responsibilities and were running foul of the law. The PPR course intends to address this by giving skippers an overview of where to source this information. If a skipper chooses to cheat by letting his mate to tell him the answers and he later breaks the law he will face prosecution. Where as those who take the course/test honestly should find themselves better placed to follow the regulations in the first place.

So how was this identified? If by MCA inspections then your last point

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

What actually is the problem that you want to solve by introducing the cost and bureaucracy of surprise MCA inspections?

is surely invalid as the system clearly works. If by examiners during the YM exams then clearly the issue is with the syllabus and or the instructors.

Why penalise the Skippers that DO know their job and the regulations instead of 're-educating' those that don't?

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

In reply to your other comments

zero to hero courses include the required sea time and if run properly can produce very capable skippers.

But with no practical experience in the commercial world or with passengers except the other course members?

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

What actually is the problem that you want to solve by introducing the cost and bureaucracy of surprise MCA inspections?

See above.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

It's interesting that you place more trust in mariners who have bits of signed paper saying they have certified sea time and have undergone an oral exam than those who have been examined practically and demonstrated that they can deliver the goods in a boat.

I don't but at least there is a paper trail and from experience the MCA orals tend to be a little more in depth than the YM one. Also from practical experience I have found that someone who has just left a zero to hero course with their head filled with dreams of walking into a high paying command job are usually the worst. The best crew/Skippers tend to be those who have grown up around boats or started as deck hands and then worked their way up, taking the exams as needed.

I stand by my view that this is simply a way for the RYA and it's training organisations to extract more money from the licence holders.

SDG

[SeaSkills]

I'm with Doug on this one. All the people I train (except for the odd few in my spare time) are commercial operators, and in my opinion this course fills a gap that has been a flaw in RYA training for a long time.

Where I work we have several hundred commercial skippers and I am responsible for their training. I have to tell you that they aren't particularly looking forward to the training (and I'm not especially looking forward to paying for it) - but nonetheless the overwhelming majority of them (including every single one of them who has now completed it) think that it's a good thing.

All skippers have a duty of care, and you could argue that commercial skippers have a greater duty than others. How can they discharge that duty if they don't even know the legislation that they are expected to work within? This course helps them to know what their legal requirements are, and how is that a bad thing? I think the approach is about right too. They aren't required to learn the detail of the rules, just which ones apply, where to find them, and where to look up the answers once they recognise that they need too. Not cheating - mo like real life

[Tim M]

SDGANDER, I see you are based in the USA. Do you have much experience working as a commercially endorsed skipper in the UK?

As a full time freelance skipper, I think this new exam is a great idea. Hopefully it will weed out some of the zero to hero level 2 skippers that I frequently come across working in the Solent, and indeed make other skippers aware of what their obligations are. If they don't want to learn, or want to somehow cheat in the exam then more fool them - it's going to be their neck on the line if they end up in some sort of incident.

I also don't think the RYA are going to get rich quick by running this new exam for such a limited number of people!!

[DM]

Originally Posted by Tim M

SDGANDER Do you have much experience working as a commercially endorsed skipper in the UK?

Shall I tell him?

No.

[Tim M]

Oh......

[SDGANDER]

I call the USA home but work is in the UK and my 25 ish years experience is in the UK with (DOT)MCA issued CoC, mostly on vessels around 20 m LOA operating mostly under the work boat code. So yes I have a fairly good understanding!

I have no issue with people learning or being required to sit and exam to show competence or understanding but at home online?

No difference to cheating and having an incident or not bothering to know the rules and having an incident is there? Unless it can be proved that the person concerned cheated...

SDG

[Doug Stormforce]

SDG

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

So how was this identified? If by MCA inspections then your last point is surely invalid as the system clearly works. If by examiners during the YM exams then clearly the issue is with the syllabus and or the instructors.

No it was not specifically spotted by MCA inspections but was painfully apparent to lots of people. You only have to look at the questions asked on this forum by commercial skippers and full time professional boat owners/operators to see that there was a gap in their training.

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

Why penalise the Skippers that DO know their job and the regulations instead of 're-educating' those that don't?

I don't think £31 plus vat and a few hours of their time really penalises skippers. If they already know it all they will whizz through the course quickly. However insisting that all skipper have a MCA CoC as earlier suggested would penalise all skippers.

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

But with no practical experience in the commercial world or with passengers except the other course members?

New entrants to the industry have to start somewhere, they can't all be as good as you! They will only get experience in the commercial world by working in it.

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

Also from practical experience I have found that someone who has just left a zero to hero course with their head filled with dreams of walking into a high paying command job are usually the worst.

Not in my experience. I find that the vast majority of newly qualified fast track student are very aware of their lack of experience and are desperate to put some more "miles" under their belt.

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

best crew/Skippers tend to be those who have grown up around boats or started as deck hands and then worked their way up, taking the exams as needed.

I totally agree, and now they will have to take a PPR exam and in most cases they will benefit from it because it will teach them things that they don't simply learn by growing up around boats.

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

I stand by my view that this is simply a way for the RYA and it's training organisations to extract more money from the licence holders.

Each to their own views! It seems however we both agree that more robust training is better and neither of us want it to be too expensive. Shame the RYA had to introduce such a cheap course that fills a gap in the existing training regime eh!

[SDGANDER]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

SDG

No it was not specifically spotted by MCA inspections but was painfully apparent to lots of people. You only have to look at the questions asked on this forum by commercial skippers and full time professional boat owners/operators to see that there was a gap in their training.

So no actual quantifiable data to justify it then? Unfortunately those who ask questions are less likely to have an 'incident' as the fact they have asked clearly demonstrates that they have realised a knowledge gap and are trying to resolve that.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I don't think £31 plus vat and a few hours of their time really penalises skippers. If they already know it all they will whizz through the course quickly.

More expense for a start. Makes the renewal around £80 now?

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

However insisting that all skipper have a MCA CoC as earlier suggested would penalise all skippers.

Except those with MCA CoC of course...

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

New entrants to the industry have to start somewhere, they can't all be as good as you! They will only get experience in the commercial world by working in it.

Yes, but start as deckhands or Mates and learn the job to gain the experience. Not expect to jump straight in to a Skipper's position as many do - I'm sure I don't need to name the schools that fill peoples heads with the seas are paved with gold expectations.

I never said I was good. Just know my job and being a perfectionist anything less than perfect I can improve on.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Not in my experience. I find that the vast majority of newly qualified fast track student are very aware of their lack of experience and are desperate to put some more "miles" under their belt.

As a trainer or as an employer? Certainly not my experience, nor that of the company I do most of my work for. Actually finding people who want to WORK and learn after the first few days novelty has worn off is very difficult.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Each to their own views! It seems however we both agree that more robust training is better and neither of us want it to be too expensive. Shame the RYA had to introduce such a cheap course that fills a gap in the existing training regime eh!

Shame maybe that the course isn't or hasn't been properly taught or examined so this new course wasn't necessary.

Why not have a brief re- examination of the whole syllabus for every five year renewal? Sure that would sort out a lot more of the problems!

Anyway as you said each to their own views and like you I shan't be changing mine any time soon

SDG