Professional Practices and Responsibilities Training (Split from ML5)

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Polwart

- virtually anyone can get it commercially endorsed from courses which are essentially about attendance not comprehension.

That is being addressed, see this quote from the RYA Website:

We are currently developing an online training course to prepare commercial endorsement holders for the extra responsibilities of being a professional skipper or crew, above those needed for safe leisure boating. The course will cover the legal requirements, regulations, guidance and processes for managing the vessel and its crew. From April 2012 this will become a pre-requisite for anyone applying for their first commercial endorsement, and for those renewing their endorsement. Further details will be available nearer the time through RYA Magazine, our website and the marine press.

Source: Commercial Endorsements | Professional Qualifications | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA

[C2 RIBS]

Jimbo. apart from the RYA, who else is involved in these discussions and decisions.
i.e MCA, Professional bodies or associations?

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Jimbo. apart from the RYA, who else is involved in these discussions and decisions.
i.e MCA, Professional bodies or associations?

I'm afraid from my own personal knowledge/perspective, all I know is that it has been discussed at various RYA Instructor Conferences (i.e. Instructors have had an input) as well as at RYA House itself. The debate I was involved in at the Yachtmaster Instructor Conference benefitted from input across a massive spectrum, including charter operators, sea schools, wind farm support companies, and commercial towing, salvage, and diving operations. Our comments were then fed back to RYA Training.

Beyond that I couldn't answer; I'd be surprised if the MCA didn't have some sort of oversight, but as I say, I don't know. It may be that other Ribnetters (Doug springs to mind) will have further knowledge, but I've e-mailed Richard Falk at the RYA anyway to find out some more info for you.

[Poly]

Jimbo, as it stands what I wrote is correct, and there is no specific date for launch for the new training either. However, I'm somewhat cynical that an "on-line training course" is actually going to address the point I made, not to say that the content is not relevant/useful/appropriate.

[Ribochet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribochet
With a Powerboat Level 2 you will be restricted to MCA Category 6 which covers to sea within 3 miles from a nominated departure point(s) named in the vesels certificate and never more than 3 miles from land, in favourable weather and daylight.

You can check whether the area of operation is at "sea" by checking out Categorisation of waters MSN 1776 (M) produced by the MCA

Are you saying that A mothership can't be a nominated departure point or am I reading this wrong?

As I made no mention of a mothership I am a bit confused as to your point.
The restrictions stated in relation to Category 6 are as stated in The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) Codes of Practice for Small Commercial Vessels (SCV) MGN 280

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Jimbo, as it stands what I wrote is correct, and there is no specific date for launch for the new training either.

Yes - I wasn't attempting to correct you in any way, I was attempting to enhance your post and the rest of the advice given - the new e-learning course is something everyone who has or wishes to gain a commercial endorsement will have to do, so there is no reason not to make people aware of it.

The specific launch date will certainly be made public on the commercial endorsement page I linked to (as well as elsewhere) so I think that with an "effective from" date of April 2012 it still has relevance to someone who is considering their options.

Originally Posted by Polwart

However, I'm somewhat cynical that an "on-line training course" is actually going to address the point I made, not to say that the content is not relevant/useful/appropriate.

That's probably a debate for another thread, and perhaps after the course has come out and the content has been seen. In any case, the justification for the new course is based around a response to criticisms such as "anyone can get it commercially endorsed from courses which are essentially about attendance not comprehension", as the assessment aspects of it will involve comprehension, not just attendance in front of your monitor.

Perhaps I should have posted the quote and link to the RYA independently of your comments; but as I say, this future course has specific relevance to williamhorace336, as well as anyone else planning to commercially endorse, or continue to be commercially endorsed, in the future.

[Poly]

Jimbo, I wasn't trying to get into an argument. I'm a cynical git, but I doubt it will really test comprehension - it will likely be multiple choice (like the CEVNI test! or the Driving License Theory Test) and it sounds like it will be sat at home so self regulated (e.g. I could have an "expert" sitting beside me coaching me through the answers - if it was really tricky).

I can already imagine the threads come middle of next year from established commercial skippers having to "take a mickey mouse test to keep pen pushers in a job" despite the fact "they've been doing the job for 15 yrs" - not to say they are necessarily good at it! It may however have been better to develop some form of exam similar to the Advanced, assessed by someone independent of the instructor and ensuring that these aspects were covered in the syllabus.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I can already imagine the threads come middle of next year from established commercial skippers having to "take a mickey mouse test to keep pen pushers in a job" despite the fact "they've been doing the job for 15 yrs" - not to say they are necessarily good at it!

Mostly, that will be the same ones that complained about the old process

As I said; I've no real idea as to the content or delivery of the new course, beyond what I've read in Wavelength, but irrespective of content or effectiveness, it's coming, and will be mandatory.

Hopefully tomorrow Richard Falk will get back to me with some answers on Ian's questions as to who has had input.

[Doug Stormforce]

Poly

The aim behind the new on-line commercial endorsement training/test is to ensure that commercial skippers are made aware of their legal responsibilities.

To date we (RYA Instructors/schools in general) have never really focused on teaching this kind of stuff. It has defiantly been a chink in our scheme.

The number of CoC holders who are unaware what their certificate actually allows them to do and not do is testament to the problem and proven by many of the questions that get asked on this forum.

The aim of the course is to give skippers a better knowledge so that they don't get themselves into trouble. Yes you could cheat and get an "expert" to take the test for you but that's not going to help you much when you later find yourself in court because you were unaware of your responsibilities.

The idea is not to make it harder to become a commercial skipper but to make commercial skippers better.

As Jimbo has already said the new course will kick in for anyone applying for a commercial endorsement from 1 April 2012 and for anyone re- applying for an endorsement. Over the following 5 years we will all therefore have to update.

[biffer]

and at what cost, good old rya have done it again, how can they be so arrogant to think the world revolves round them

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by biffer

and at what cost, good old rya have done it again, how can they be so arrogant to think the world revolves round them

biff, I'm not sure what you mean here - it's clear there was room for the RYA to make their commercial endorsement process more robust, which is what they've done - it defends their brand, yes, but more importantly helps raise awareness of skippers who have qualified by progressing through the RYA Schemes.

As for cost, I don't know how much the PPR will be, but it's going to be delivered online, and the RYA information states:

Originally Posted by RYA Wavelength

We will keep the cost of the course as reasonable as possible so that it doesn’t become too much of a barrier for applicants.

I'm not sure how this could be any different?

[Poly]

Doug, I understand the logic. I think the discrepancy is that I don't think it will actually really aid comprehension - simply force people to quickly learn a bunch of facts (or have a set of summary notes next to them) when they sit the test, much like the CEVNI test. Whilst some will take it seriously those are the people who would have bothered to find out the rules and responsibilities anyway - the ones who are disinterested will have forgotten the facts within a few weeks/months of sitting the test and carry on regardless. And, currently, they won't need to retake the test so as rules change and evolve they may end up out of date.

The number of CoC holders who are unaware what their certificate actually allows them to do and not do is testament to the problem and proven by many of the questions that get asked on this forum.

and do you think that will change?

Yes you could cheat and get an "expert" to take the test for you but that's not going to help you much when you later find yourself in court because you were unaware of your responsibilities.

ending up in court is apparently not an incentive for people to bother to find out the facts for themselves in the current system.

I can see there is a problem (and many APB Instructors don't seem to know the rules properly), I'm just not convinced that e-learning is likely to prove comprehension. Of course since the bank of instructors aren't in a position to fill the gap without significant training themselves - the RYA may not be the best places organisation to deliver the training. After all most training school boats are largely exempt from the rules they would be teaching!

[biffer]

so they are going to do it online, what stops joe bloggs getting dag pike to do it for him, it just a money gathering exercise just like splitting the exams into modules just like not excepting the ML5 medical for racing, so i can drive a ferry full of people with an ML5 but can't drive a race boat, just like telling alan priddy he needs a race licence and so do all his passengers to go round the world in a boat, no other boats are going with him so who's he racing, he's done more sea miles than every worker in the rya put together, is any of this starting to get though, THEY ARE JUST IN IT FOR THE MONEY!

[Rogue Wave]

Back peddle time I've just sent a PM to Jimbo saying I was pleased the RYA was doing something but didn't realise it was on line. So....... sorry Jimbo about that last PM but I t my opinion has changed

Biff

On line is a stoopid idea, and you are absolutely correct. I really believe that the RYA needs to do something about the situation, and am pleased that they are, but on line won't do it at all. its got to be an exam and the examiner has got to have the relevant commercial experience. and your'e right you could get a swot too bone up on the subject and do the test for you or get themselves the ticket with no real practical experience

What makes you think they are in it for the money they sem a benevolent association to me.

I'm saving up to buy an RYA logoed Instructor Fleece
from the RYA store and that looks like a good deal to me BTW If you are looking for a new Volvo I know the RYA you can get a cute deal for their members.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribochet
With a Powerboat Level 2 you will be restricted to MCA Category 6 which covers to sea within 3 miles from a nominated departure point(s) named in the vesels certificate and never more than 3 miles from land, in favourable weather and daylight.

You can check whether the area of operation is at "sea" by checking out Categorisation of waters MSN 1776 (M) produced by the MCA

Are you saying that A mothership can't be a nominated departure point or am I reading this wrong?

As I made no mention of a mothership I am a bit confused as to your point.
The restrictions stated in relation to Category 6 are as stated in The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) Codes of Practice for Small Commercial Vessels (SCV) MGN 280

you'd be on the wrong thread I suspect theres been a bit of Moderation going on !

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Polwart

After all most training school boats are largely exempt from the rules they would be teaching!

Intersting at my examiners update this was mentioned about having to have your boats coded to meet legal requirements .
Also about seats for all clients in future and not sat on the side.

I for one am in favour of the new PPR it will make the comercial endorsement more valid costings mentioned are around the £30 mark so not expensive.
Tim

[biffer]

Have all the boats coded. That's rich considering the rya hasn't got a coded boat of there own and they must upwards of a 100 boats and I'm not just talking ribs

sent from a remote device

[C2 RIBS]

Your right Biff, I cant see the RYA insisting on having coded boats for their training schools as they have exemptions at the moment as I understand it. A few schools have coded their RIBs and Yachts so they can charter them as well. But the release date being early 2012- I cant see the RYA making that requirement for their schools even if you just consider the Olympics are that year.

[biffer]

What grips me is that you pay through the nose for all your courses then they want you to volunteer to do their work. I coded my rib to do their work then they said I had to use a protector. Didn't do one event with mine. Coded for nothing

sent from a remote device

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Intersting at my examiners update this was mentioned about having to have your boats coded to meet legal requirements .
Also about seats for all clients in future and not sat on the side.

Tim

Thats certainly a good thing