Renewing old commercial endorsement

[John Kennett]

The commercial endorsement on my Advanced Certificate expired some years ago. What would I need to do to renew it now?

I know I'd need an up to date first aid certificate and upgrade my Restricted VHF to SRC. Medical too presumably? Sea survival is a once-only requirement I think?

What about any of the new stuff that has come in over the last few years?

[Stormforce]

Hi John,

You would need an in date First Aid Certificate, yes. You aren't limited to the RYA First Aid, there are many other certificates that are acceptable to them. You wouldn't actually need to prove this for the purposes of obtaining the commercial endorsement, but you would need to 'hold' it, in order for your commercial endorsement to be valid.

Sea Survival is once only, provided it is an RYA certificate rather than an MCA one (they had expiry dates on them).

Your Restricted VHF certificate is also fine - there is no requirement to update this for the purposes of the Commercial Endorsement. The VHF requirement is actually an Advanced Exam/Advanced Course requirement, not a commercial endorsement pre-requisite.

The new 'bit' is the PPR (Professional Practices and Responsibilities) Course. This is conducted online, and the RYA charge a flat fee of £37.40 (£31+VAT) for it. Some schools will charge extra for support, others do it included in the small fee the RYA then pass to them (you have to select a school when you book on).

Yes, you will require a medical. Either an ML5 or ENG1 will be fine, the ML5 is probably more straightforward to obtain, and is valid for 5 years rather than the two of the ENG1. Any medical certificate for a Commercial Endorsement must be less than 6 months old at the time of application.

In summary - to gain your commercial endorsement, you would need to send off:

• A completed application form
• Your Advanced Course Completion Certificate
• Your Sea Survival Certificate
• Your PPR Certificate (Printed from the online site)
• An in date medical (ML5 or ENG1)
• The RYA Fee
• A passport photo

Effectively, as your old Commercial endorsement has 'lapsed', you are sending off a new application rather than a revalidation - it doesn't make much difference in practice.

If you'd like to discuss your options on the PPR Course and the First Aid Course then please do give us a call on 02380 231122 or e-mail us on coaching@stormforce.biz - there are plenty of other willing providers out there though, and I guess we are a reasonable trek from Brighton!

Best Regards,

The Stormforce Team

[Mbryant]

Hi,

If I have qualified in the last couple of years do I need to do my PPR ready for this season? Or does my qualification stand for x amount of years before I have to top up?

Thanks

[Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Mbryant

Hi,

If I have qualified in the last couple of years do I need to do my PPR ready for this season? Or does my qualification stand for x amount of years before I have to top up?

Thanks

Hi Matt,

A valid PPR Certificate will only be required when you renew your Commercial Endorsement, so you don't need to do the online course until close to that time. However, the Professional Practices and Responsibilities course is, once completed, valid for 5 years, so you might decide you want to get started on it with plenty of time.

The course is designed to be approximately 6-8 hours of solid work, we've got one experienced boater who basically went straight on to the exam on Monday, one chap who started this morning and has passed the first half of the exam, several people who have signed up and are still working on it etc etc, so it really isn't necessary to put it off until the last minute.

As long as you hold a valid commercial endorsement, you're fine for this season.

The Stormforce Team

[Rogue Wave]

How long does the online test take?

[Stormforce]

Rogue Wave,

To sit both components to the online exam will take between about 30 minutes to 2 hours (you're allowed an hour for each). It depends on several factors, including your existing knowledge, but also your ability to switch between several documents and extract the relevant information from them. For example, in some scenario based questions, you may need to refer to MGN 280, a fictitious CV, and some fictitious operating procedures.

It is possible to do the exam without going through all of the course material, but most people do need a bit of time to familiarise themselves with what is required.

The Stormforce Team

[Rogue Wave]

Being very committed to the safety of my passengers I have to say that I think this is a good thing in theory, and not before time.

So a pro skipper who knows his/her stuff should be able to be back in the real world in an hour and a bit....sounds good!

Good to sea you have to refer to the SCV Code.

Does the Course/Exam cover the various injuries/fatalities (and their avoidance) that you can gain on a RIB/Workboat and risk assessment techniques.

Also I'm hoping this exam need to be taken by people endorsing the PB2 or Intermediate ticket.

On a lighter note the use of a fictitious CV made me chuckle......... There is quite a few out there to choose from

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Also I'm hoping this exam need to be taken by people endorsing the PB2 or Intermediate ticket.

I believe it does for PB2 (and you can't actually endorse an Intermediate PB Certificate).

Stormforce - do you not need to show that you have been "active" in order to renew a certificate? It is something quite onerous for any ad-hoc skipper who wasn't doing it as a 'main job' - 30 days a year of paid work? Presumably if you don't have that you need to resit the commercial endorsement exam?

Also from a previous discussion I recalled (possibly wrongly) that the skipper didn't actually need the F.A. cert at all - there was only a requirement that someone on board had it (so could be a crew member). If my 'willk-like memory' is working that thread was started by "Grocer".

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Polwart

I believe it does for PB2 (and you can't actually endorse an Intermediate PB Certificate).

.

Young Polwilk,

You are contemporaneously accurate, however, I have heard from a Principal I used to work with that the in the future the minimum qualification to endorse will be the Intermediate, Hence the vague question?

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Young Polwilk,

You are contemporaneously accurate, however, I have heard from a Principal I used to work with that the in the future the minimum qualification to endorse will be the Intermediate, Hence the vague question?

I believe your spot on Rogue, the PB2 plan for the future is exactly that NON endorseable but then the intermediate will be commercially endorseable

[willk]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Young Polwilk,

no please - it's confusing enough as it is!

[Stormforce]

Rogue Wave,

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Does the Course/Exam cover the various injuries/fatalities (and their avoidance) that you can gain on a RIB/Workboat and risk assessment techniques.

Yes, there is a section on Risk Assessment techniques - it's quite broad, and covers a variety of craft.

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Also I'm hoping this exam need to be taken by people endorsing the PB2 or Intermediate ticket.

Re: PB2 - yes. Any commercial endorsement will require the PPR. Re: Intermediate - no, as this is not a commercially endorseable certificate.

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

On a lighter note the use of a fictitious CV made me chuckle......... There is quite a few out there to choose from

Polwart,

Originally Posted by Polwart

Stormforce - do you not need to show that you have been "active" in order to renew a certificate?

Yes - a renewal would require you to confirm/prove/demonstrate suitable sea time. It's spread over 5 years, and it certainly isn't onerous. (150 days over 5 years).

If you don't meet the requirements, there is a route forwards if you can prove that you have a close involvement with managing commercial vessels, exact wording:

Applicants for revalidation who are not able to prove the requisite sea service but are able to demonstrate that during at least half of the five year period they have been employed on duties closely associated with the management and operation of one or more of the appropriate types of vessels, may have their Certificates or Licences considered for revalidation.

Originally Posted by Polwart

Also from a previous discussion I recalled (possibly wrongly) that the skipper didn't actually need the F.A. cert at all - there was only a requirement that someone on board had it (so could be a crew member).

Polwart - according to MGN 280:

2.8 First Aid Training
The skipper or a member of the crew of vessels which operate in Area Category 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 should hold an MCA approved Elementary First Aid Certificate (or the First Aid at Sea certificate or Medical First Aid certificate), an RYA First Aid Certificate, or a SeaFish Basic First Aid Certificate, provided use of the medical stores is covered in the course. Skippers of vessels operating in Area Category 0 or 1 should hold a Proficiency in Medical Care Certificate (or its predecessor, the Ship Captain’s Medical Certificate) unless another member of the crew holds a medical or nursing qualification of an equivalent or a higher standard.
The skipper or nominated first-aider should undertake refresher training at least every five years.

So in theory, yes, it doesn't have to be the skipper. In practice, it's rare to find an Advanced Powerboat Coc (Commercial) or Yachtmaster Coastal/Offshore/Ocean CoC (Commercial) holder that doesn't keep their First Aid current.

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

You are contemporaneously accurate, however, I have heard from a Principal I used to work with that the in the future the minimum qualification to endorse will be the Intermediate, Hence the vague question?

Were that to be the case (I'm currently investigating!) then yes, you would still require the PPR course. The PPR applies to the Commercial Endorsement application, irrespective of the Certificate of Competence or Course Completion Certificate being endorsed. Therefore, if you hold several commercially endorsed certificates, you still actually only have one commercial endorsement, so of course only need to do the PPR once.

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Stormforce

Rogue Wave,



Re: PB2 - yes. Any commercial endorsement will require the PPR. Re: Intermediate - no, as this is not a commercially endorseable certificate.


.

I was at a meeting and RYA chief stated PB2 endorsement was going and the Intermediate would then be endorseable. Have they changed their minds?

[Stormforce]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I was at a meeting and RYA chief stated PB2 endorsement was going and the Intermediate would then be endorseable. Have they changed their minds?

Ian,

I'm working on finding this out as we speak. When you say RYA Chief - Chief Executive, Chief Motor Cruising Instructor, Head of Training...?

[C2 RIBS]

It was a training day with Marine Matters and we went into detail on PPR plans and chief instructor or similar, Aussie guy

This I posted in December "The next move on from this is to remove a commercial endorsement at PB2 level and only allow an endorsement starting at Intermediate course level which would allow then restricted water work and keeping the advanced commercial endorsement as it stands for a while before further changes. " this was on a similar issue and links came from RYA site

[Trailer Bloke]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

It was a training day with Marine Matters and we went into detail on PPR plans and chief instructor or similar, Aussie guy

Was this Bruce?

[wavelength]

I thought I had read with the RTC paperwork that came thru at the beginning of the year that the comm L2 would now be comm intermediate....however at my trainer's/examiner's 5yearly update last month I was told that this was not the case and to be candid I have not seen it anywhere else so I'm beginning to think I must have made it up! Paperwork at home and I'm at sea (as usual ) so I can't look for it.
L2 is allegedly from zero knowledge to a cert in 2 days........that seems a scary thing to allow a comm endorsement on. I meet folk who have done just that but ya wouldnt allow them in charge of a boat on anything other than wet grass to be honest

[Stormforce]

To clarify - the Maritime Coastguard Agency are the ones who decide which course completion certificates and certificates of competence can be commercially endorsed.

Currently, the only RYA Powerboat Scheme course completion certificate that can be commercially endorsed is the Powerboat Level 2. I've spoken to the RYA, and they haven't discussed any changes to this with the MCA, although that's not to say there won't be changes in the future.

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by wavelength

I thought I had read with the RTC paperwork that came thru at the beginning of the year that the comm L2 would now be comm intermediate....however at my trainer's/examiner's 5yearly update last month I was told that this was not the case and to be candid I have not seen it anywhere else so I'm beginning to think I must have made it up! Paperwork at home and I'm at sea (as usual ) so I can't look for it.
L2 is allegedly from zero knowledge to a cert in 2 days........that seems a scary thing to allow a comm endorsement on. I meet folk who have done just that but ya wouldnt allow them in charge of a boat on anything other than wet grass to be honest

I agree that was in written format and also explained at our CPD training and direct from RYA. They may be now re-thinking but only in last three months this was the plan and agreed route. No point me argueing with the RYA and training centres.

[Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Stormforce

although that's not to say there won't be changes in the future.