RYA Adbanced Commercial Endorsement

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

It's not going where I wanted it to go because I'm not getting the answers from new commercially endorsed Skippers. I only asked one question, from a specific group of people and so far I haven't got an answer

Why The questions?

As an RYA Powewrboat instructor I am intesested in what is happening in practice and not theory. Having said that I haven't been looking for instructor work for over a year.

As a member of the RYA I'm intereated that my association is doing it's utmost to improve commercial powerboating safety.

As a commercial boat driver I sometimes am consulted to recommend people and levels of qualifications to my employers so it's good to know what people are coming out of the courses with. Also as a commercial boat driver it would be good to know what my new colleagues have been trained in. I'm also interested in wether the RYA have acted on the recommendations made to them by the MAIB re spinal injuries in 2009

I couldn't agree with you and Jimbo more re the Hero to Zero course, does this mean that yourself and Jimbo (i know you can't answer on his behalf) would not offer such a package?

I accept that the treatment of the injuries I mention would be covered on an RYA 1st aid course, but I'm far, far more concerned about prevention rather than cure so I'm interested in finding out how much input is put into helping new drivers avoid inflicting those injuries.

Re the communication issues, I wasn't referring to Customer Care Skills as such but the communication with passengers in an emergency/breakdown. I also accept that you can get get on the radio if you had a breakdown but it's a lot cooler if you can spot an issue before or whilst it's happening.
and prevent the breakdown.

I'd still love to hear from a recently qualified boat driver.

BTW for the record I don't think im a fantastic boat driver, everytime I think I'm adequate the sea has a way or reminding me that I'm not!

The incident with Celtic Pioneer is a good example to ask this type of question.
The helm was a level 2 commercially endorsed driver not ADVANCED operating outside of area covered by his qualifications . The helm was at the rear of the rib the area least affected by the sea conditions , the lady who suffered the wedge fracture to he lower spine was seat at the front the area of the rib most affected by the sea.

Poor communication with the rescue services made the situation worse in delaying the woman getting ashore taken to the wrong landing place.

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm
Tim

[Poly]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

The incident with Celtic Pioneer is a good example to ask this type of question.
The helm was a level 2 commercially endorsed driver not ADVANCED operating outside of area covered by his qualifications .

I don't remember that from the report - and thought the MAIB were suggested PB2 was probably not a suitable requirement level - rather than the skipper was inadequately qualified within the current framework, but I may be wrong. Its quite a serious accusation though.

The helm was at the rear of the rib the area least affected by the sea conditions , the lady who suffered the wedge fracture to he lower spine was seat at the front the area of the rib most affected by the sea.

that might suggest this was an isolated incident. But from the report: "The MAIB is aware of 28 accidents that have resulted in lower back compression injuries on board RIBs since 2001. Of these, 21 occurred in the last 3 years, 12 were confirmed as spinal fractures and 16 occurred during thrill-type boat rides."

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

actually neither of those points forms recommendations in the report. There is some brief discussion around the reduced stress on the spine by standing - but no specific recommendation that this is adopted.

a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it

Thats all very well - but it won't deal with the issue that a passenger will not wish to disrupt a trip for everyone else, will not want to be seen to be creating a fuss etc. So you end up with it only being used once its got too bad / an injury occurs. Add to that that anyone feeling uncomfortable / scared / bounced about is probably holding on for dear life.

[C2 RIBS]

I read all MAIB reports I can get my hands on and following the Celtic Pioneer report I changed my safety briefings and also my health and safety policy docs so all helms have an understanding of accidents that occurred.
I certainly recall what Tim Griffin states about the helm being a PB2 commercially endorsed outside his area of ops and also the owner was aboard and also the mistake of not notifying the coast guard of the injury for advice and help.

As a charter operator I always look for ways to ensure maximum safety for clients and other boat users which is paramount and we should all develop and learn from others experiences, mistakes etc. Again it does not answer your original question but safety is first and second in my book.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I certainly recall what Tim Griffin states about the helm being a PB2 commercially endorsed outside his area of ops

OK - i've found it:

Celtic Pioneer and Celtic Ranger were certified under the
Yellow Code to operate up to 20 miles from a safe haven, which requires a
minimum qualification equivalent to the RYA Powerboat Advanced Certificate of
Competency. The skipper on board Celtic Pioneer only held the RYA Powerboat
Level 2 Certificate. As the 1 hour ‘coastal blast’ took place within 3 miles of
the Cardiff Bay barrage, this could be considered to fall within area category 6
of the SCV Code, in which the Powerboat Level 2 is an acceptable standard
providing a departure point has been nominated. As no departure point was
nominated, and as the skipper only held a Powerboat level 2 qualification, this
trip did not meet the requirements laid down in either Code.

The report doesn't make a big deal of it, I guess because the same boat and skipper could have been operating in exactly the same way (and within the rules) if they had coded with a nominated departure point (so simply saying the skipper was "under qualified" is not the cause).

[tim griffin]

Perhaps I should have said that a Powerboat Level 2 Certificate would not be suitable as the level of experience is minimal .

But are we not moving away from the thread this incident did not invlove a helm with a Advanced Powerboat with Certificate of Competence.

I am afraid I wrote my reply from memory regarding the incident but thank you for pointing out my errors regarding facts I shall pay attention to detail in the future.
Tim

[Rogue Wave]

The Drivers Qualifications were poor and I suspect that will cost the owner (and me) a lot of money. However, the recomendations o the RYA were a general recomendation to highlight risk throughout the powerboat sylabi. he did however have years of experience with this company

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Poor communication with the rescue services made the situation worse in delaying the woman getting ashore taken to the wrong landing place.

Agreed which is why I asked if it how comms were covered in the course/ assessment.

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

Is that sort of thing covered in the assessment. makes a lot of sense to me.

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm
Tim

re the RYA developing a thrill ride course, that wasn't said in the report, but not a bad idea at all Tim in my opinion. Theres a few schools doing more commercial PB training but it's outside of the RYA. MRI being about the best I can think of but there another RYA Skool down Humber way (Team Alpha? ) who are issuing there own certificates, in addition to RYA tickets You've got a good school and a good reputation have you considered it?

Some of the recommendations from the MAIB in this incident were

The PBA and PBOA institute a code of practice for thrill seeker rides. The report says that this is so done.

The RYA raise the awareness of the dangers of shock and vibration in small highspeed craft through its powerboat training syllabii,

I'm getting the impression this hasn't been done, yet!. You never know though the RYA could be issuing a directive as we type!

[Jimbo]

Stu - I appreciate there are a lot of respected/senior RYA Qualified instructors on this forum, and a lot of RYA "interest", but it strikes me that as a RIB forum that is not RYA affilliated, if it is answers rather than discussion, and constructive suggestions that may be incorporated into RYA Policy you are after - here might not be the best place to make your voice heard!

I don't know if you attend the instructor conferences, which might be a good place to raise this, but a letter to either John Thorn (Chief Powerboat Trainer) or James Stevens (Chief Examiner) at the RYA might be appropriate - it could provide answers to anything that may have changed, or they may be looking at changing, and is also a good way of putting your ideas forward.

That's not the be all and end all though - I can say following reading your thread it has made me think about the validity of assessing and controlling risk for potential skippers - this is something that it's relatively straightforward to examine and include on the Advanced Requirements, and therefore any preparation courses. I've chatted to 5 examiners I work with about this (drawing their attention to who and where it's come from) and hopefully they will also take it up a level.

[Rogue Wave]

This is turning into a tape loop!

I shouldn't need to be writing to te RYA, or attending, an instructors conference to find out if they've implemented any changes to their powerboat sylabi with respect to back injuries. The reason for this is that the MAIB did that back in May 2009 sadly judging by the reponses so far nothing has happenned.

If the RYA want to talk to me and explain why they've done nothing

I am

Stuart Anthony Hopkins
59 Gainsford Road
S019 7AW
07859886431

Could be fun! I'll put my mobile on chrge. No canvassers plaease.

I still think in your haste to defend the RYA that your missing the tha major point. That prevention of injury needs to be injected at all stages of the powerboat sylabi as requested by the MAIB.

I am please to see that my comments have made you think about safety in a different light.

Now make me even more happy:

Tell me you wont do a zero to hero course.

and you'll be giving a copy or a link to that MAIB report to your rib driving stoodents.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I still think in your haste to defend the RYA that your missing the tha major point. That prevention of injury needs to be injected at all stages of the powerboat sylabi as requested by the MAIB.

Stuart, I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to engage in constructive and relevant discussion.

I think (hope) we can agree that the RYA are not actively encouraging unsafe or ineffective practices in their training or qualifications, and that their motivation for ensuring the safety of all who take to the water is surely the same as yours or anyone else who goes to sea? Extended this - if they do exist to promote safe practice, they must be open to ideas, lessons learnt, criticisms and support, and this has to feed into their training programmes.

Focusing on any specifics that you think should be changed - as an RYA Instructor you will be receiving their Wavelength magazine - that's designed as a way of communicating instructing updates and syllabus changes to us. If you haven't seen what you want in here, and they haven't made any chances you think they should have done - tell them!

You've come on this web forum asking for people who have been through this process recently to come forward and discuss - nobody has (at least not openly, have you had an PMs?). You've made some good points regarding changes you think you should be made, and lessons learnt, and have asked if they have been acknowledged in the RYA scheme - nothing on this has been published yet, but we don't know what they're working on. Several RYA Instructors, Commercial Skippers, and Examiners have come forward to comment, but this still hasn't provided what you are looking for. I'm sure they've discussed this, and know I have widened the net by talking to more people I know in the industry, but I haven't discussed this with John Thorn, as it's your thread, your suggestions, your comments. Surely it's best for you to open up e-mail communication with him so you can find out what the score is, and give him your ideas, and maybe answer his questions?

I'll do that for you if you want - I'll send an e-mail asking what changes, if any, have been incorporated, and what plans are in the pipeline, I just think if you're motivated enough to ask an open forum, and then say those that comment are "defending" the RYA because they are bothered enough to reply and discuss this with you, I can't see why you won't go direct to the horses mouth.

[Doug Stormforce]

To throw some light on this the RYA announced at the Trainers conference last Feb that there was a need to introduce some info into back injuries and avoidance into the syllabus at all levels. At the time this was hot of the press.

They have in fact time-tabled it as a specific agenda item at this years conference and will be asking us for thoughts on how to go about this.

I suspect that in the mean time they have been doing some work and research. I know they have been talking to a man at the MAIB about these incidents. My guess is that they don't want to re write the syllabus as a knee jerk reaction to a report and get it wrong, instead they want to learn about the subject and make sure they get the right message across. This is a new issue for them

I think the RYA recognise their is a need to make drivers more aware. I think however there is a far bigger responsibility of operators to be aware of what the current issues are in their industry and operate their businesses accordingly

[Jimbo]

Something I haven't made fully clear - the replies you've had haven't been from the target group you wanted (which isn't my problem!) but they are valid and worthwhile nonetheless, because....

RYA Examiners, Trainers, Instructors, and therefore newly qualified skippers and potential skippers undergoing training all examine, train to teach, teach, and therefore learn, what the RYA syllabus dictates (within the natural scope for deviation, addition, common sense, and specific examples). Therefore, I wouldn't disregard the comments from the Examiners, Trainers, and Instructors on this thread, as they (we) are the ones passing this on to students, so have in effect answered your questions, as it's a logical chain.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills (Examiner)

During the assessment there will be some checks on safety awareness but only on a "sampling" basis, it isn't feasible in the time to ask questions about everything (although having said that, if I felt that a candidate may not have quite the safety approach that I would expect, I would certainly spend more time exploring it)

Originally Posted by Jimbo (Instructor)

...I do ask questions of the students, for open discussion, on things like dealing with incidents at sea, what you say to the pregnant lady that's been put on your Rib by a charter boss that insists "it'll be fine" and what you do when you start taking on water mid course...

Originally Posted by SeaSkills (Examiner)

...I try to teach and encourage my candidates to develop an attitude to safety that is based on principles rather than examples or specifics. I think it's important for them to consider all of the things that they can think of that might go wrong (and I'll add in any obvious ones they miss) and build strategies to deal with them should the worst happen. I certainly wouldn't want to think that their reaction would stop at "Bloody hell, we didn't cover this on the course!"

So we throw in lots of surprise scenarios during our courses: for example "Purely for exercise purposes, there's smoke pouring out from under the engine cover. What are you going to do?", or "Talk me through what you'd do if one of your passengers collapsed unconscious here?", or "What's the worst thing that you can think of going wrong at the moment?"

Risk assessments are important, and we include those of course, but we don't expect that we'll anticipate very possible problem and we also want people to be able to think on their feet

Originally Posted by tim griffin (Examiner)

...safety is a big part of the exam but not every situation can be covered but safe practice and management of the boat and it's crew is one thing we are looking for.
The Injuries you mention would have been covered on a First Aid course a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course . Regarding breakdowns common sense is required to keep the boat and crew safe at all times by what ever action is appropriate for the conditions but the VHF DSC course will cover summoning assistance via either May Day or Pan Pan also a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course .

Originally Posted by tim griffin (Examiner)

This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS (Commercial Skipper)

...I always look for ways to ensure maximum safety for clients and other boat users which is paramount and we should all develop and learn from others experiences, mistakes etc. Again it does not answer your original question but safety is first and second in my book.

Looks like this cross section of boating (which doesn't include a newly qualified skipper) has
a) Answered questions on what their students/candidates can expect from them
b) Taken on board new suggestions, whether from the MAIB reports, or directly as a result of your thread.
You are achieving your aim of making things safer, whether directly or indirectly. Anything that is not happening, or that you don't think is happening, but should be, and any new ideas you may have outside specific MAIB reports - send some feedback to the right person, and get some 'official' answers.

One of the RYAs PB Examiners is also an investigator for the MAIB, so there is another definite communication route there - I am sure he has passed on feedback and suggestions.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Something I haven't made fully clear - the replies you've had haven't been from the target group you wanted (which isn't my problem!) but they are valid and worthwhile nonetheless, because....

RYA Examiners, Trainers, Instructors, and therefore newly qualified skippers and potential skippers undergoing training all examine, train to teach, teach, and therefore learn, what the RYA syllabus dictates (within the natural scope for deviation, addition, common sense, and specific examples). Therefore, I wouldn't disregard the comments from the Examiners, Trainers, and Instructors on this thread, as they (we) are the ones passing this on to students, so have in effect answered your questions, as it's a logical chain.

That statement is worthy of a Yes Minister script!

At least Dougie seems to have a clue whats going on.although I'd regard 6 months as a torporific rather than a kneejerk reaction. One things for sure the lady passenger won't be having any knee jerk reactions for a while

Thank you for telling me how I should think but I'think I'll disregard it

I've started a similar thread without mentioning the RYA. i hope that's ok

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I've started a similar thread without mentioning the RYA. i hope that's ok

You can do what you like (and do) but I'm honestly amazed you've posted a question on a public forum, knowing many of the people who keep an eye on the commercial section, and are suprised they've pitched in! Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements...

Hopefully your second thread will magically find the people you're looking for, it will be useful to see how their comments differ from the ones you've already got.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I am not patronising you

Yes you were........

Originally Posted by Jimbo

! Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements..

.......and you're still at it.

I think what you'll find he's getting at is the amount of injuries caused to ancillary offshore staff (electricians, steel erectors, IT staff, essentially non boaty people) being injured due to adv comm drivers ragging the boats as if they're on adrenaline rides. Instructors, no matter how qualified are probably not the best to answer the question unless they've got commercial experience.

That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out. Jimbo is teaching these people. Perhaps he might tell us of his own experience of these disciplines.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by DM

Yes you were........





.......and you're still at it.

I think what you'll find he's getting at is the amount of injuries caused to ancillary offshore staff (electricians, steel erectors, IT staff, essentially non boaty people) being injured due to adv comm drivers ragging the boats as if they're on adrenaline rides. Instructors, no matter how qualified are probably not the best to answer the question unless they've got commercial experience.

That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out. Jimbo is teaching these people. Perhaps he might tell us of his own experience of these disciplines.

I've just reread the whole thread again - and your comments help to clarify what Stu is possibly getting at. But Stu knows that the course hasn't undergone a major revamp. From your comments the APB qualification doesn't sound fit for the purposes you highlight - which is presumably why when Stu was advertising a job a few months back he was seeking people with a can opener and a tin of alphabetty spagetti!

[DM]

Originally Posted by Polwart

From your comments the APB qualification doesn't sound fit for the purposes you highlight

I didn't say that. What I did say is that it depends on the person teaching it. How can you teach a discipline to an aspiring commercial driver when you've got no experience of it yourself. Especially commercial specific tasks.

The only experience of commercial work, apart from training, I'd got when I qualified as a APBI was virtually zilch. I've now remedied that.

The system needs a overhaul. Not everyone who does the advanced course wants to go commercial. Maybe it needs splitting two ways with comm end people requiring a more intense course covering the tasks they're likely to encounter.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

You can do what you like (and do) but I'm honestly amazed you've posted a question on a public forum, knowing many of the people who keep an eye on the commercial section, and are suprised they've pitched in!

Thanks I'm aware that I can do what I like, and quite often do

I don't understand why your amazed that I'm surprised, cos I'm not... can't recall saying I was.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements...

There is no need I'm perfectly happy with the way things are, In fact i'm kinda enjoying the debate. I think this thread has been diverted from my original intentions so I started another one

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Hopefully your second thread will magically find the people you're looking for, it will be useful to see how their comments differ from the ones you've already got.

agreed
In post 32 you quoted from a lot of contributors to the thread. Was there a reason why you omitted Trailer Blokes comment re standards. He is after all a long standing employer of comercial skippers

[Tim M]

Interesting thread. I for quite a while now have been of the opinion that the RYA system has a lot to be desired. I appreciate how its been developed, and that is of course with the leisure boater in mind. I do however think it glosses over a lot of what I would consider to be basic “common sense” issues. Apart from the advanced exam there is currently no additional training required for someone who’s going to work commercially. Of course a lot of the people that do the exam do it simply for their own gratification which means you may well end up doing it with a load of leisure boaters. Fortunately when I did mine, I was with two other people both of whom the examiner knew wanted to drive commercially, he therefore aimed it towards commercial operating, examining us on things like safety briefings etc.

I would be very much in favour of a new course, called the “advanced commercial boat handling course” or something, similar to the new PBI assessment (so basically pass or fail) which teaches and examines how people go about operating a boat commercially. This should cover things like maintenance, knowledge and understanding of the main systems on a boat (so that if something goes wrong, the skipper can at least identify what’s wrong even if he or she is not able to repair it), risk assessments, safety briefings for the punters etc.

I say all of that because I have used skippers before who, in hindsight and in my opinion, aren’t up to scratch (and I would like to add I haven’t used since). Short of going out on a charter to observe a new skipper (which is something I am now doing) there is of course no-way real of telling how a skipper will deal with a “situation”. Even then you still can’t be 100% sure.

As Jimbo has said, common sense isn’t something you can really teach. However, it is something I think you can examine; a new pass or fail course/exam type thing I think would weed out a lot of less-than-able skippers.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by DM

That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out.

A Commercially Endorsed RYA Advanced certificate demonstrates that a person has been shown to be competent to the level of the RYA Advanced syllabus, plus a bit of ancillary stuff like Sea Survival, VHF, First aid etc.

What in the world makes you think that the RYA Advanced Powerboat syllabus is appropriate for the sort of work you're talking about? It's clearly not the right qualification for the job, and anyone who employs someone to do this sort of work on the basis of that certificate would seem to be lacking in judgement. At best.

I don't know if there's any sort of "industrial" powerboat skipper certificate that would be more applicable. If there isn't, then there probably should be. I'm not sure that the RYA would be the right organisation to have anything to do with it though.