RYA Adbanced Commercial Endorsement

[Rogue Wave]

Has any body on here attained this ticket since June 2009 if so can they tell me what the safety content of the course/exam was.

[tim griffin]

It's in the back of your G20 /04
why do you ask ?
Tim

[Rogue Wave]

Thanks I'm aware of the RYA Powerboat logbook entries Tim, What I'm really trying to find out what the newly qualified Skippers had taken away from the course, and whether the instructors had injected any lateral thinking on safety into the RYA syllabus or real life implications . e.g iisk assesment creation, challenging unworkable procedures and improving them. dealing with a crushed vertabrae or just a couple of teeth knocked out. Procedures for breakdowns, communication with Passsengers, what is/isn't reportable to the MAIB

The safety and welfare of my passengers and colleagues is of paramount importance to me when operating a boat. I was just wondering how much that issue was hammered home, so if theres anybody out there, that's recently completed the course I'm still interested

[SeaSkills]

You have to bear in mind that the Advanced PB commercial endorsement is an assessment, not a training programme. This sort of thing should be picked up during the Advanced course and through general experience over several years of boating before someone comes along to be assessed. During the assessment there will be some checks on safety awareness but only on a "sampling" basis, it isn't feasible in the time to ask questions about everything (although having said that, if I felt that a candidate may not have quite the safety approach that I would expect, I would certainly spend more time exploring it)

[Rogue Wave]

1an Hello,

Thats understood, but it's not an answer to my question. As I have previously stated I'm very commited to safety and I'd just like to know how much the RYA is, by hearing it from a recent student.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't have enough time to cover every aspect of safety, which ones do you cover? I

Are you also saying that I go to my favourite powerboat school give em a few k walk out, or hobble if we hit a few waves wrong, a wee while later with an advanced ticket with a commercial endorsement and I've only been assessed and not trained? Is the assesment based on Navigation skills more than passenger welfare.

I guess I've just Fkkd my chances up of getting any well paid work from you



Cheers stu:

[Trailer Bloke]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Thanks I'm aware of the RYA Powerboat logbook entries Tim, What I'm really trying to find out what the newly qualified Skippers had taken away from the course, and whether the instructors had injected any lateral thinking on safety into the RYA syllabus or real life implications . e.g iisk assesment creation, challenging unworkable procedures and improving them. dealing with a crushed vertabrae or just a couple of teeth knocked out. Procedures for breakdowns, communication with Passsengers, what is/isn't reportable to the MAIB

The safety and welfare of my passengers and colleagues is of paramount importance to me when operating a boat. I was just wondering how much that issue was hammered home, so if theres anybody out there, that's recently completed the course I'm still interested

Something has to be done about standards, some of the people that I have assessed with Advanced PB commercial certs I would not even trust in a boat on their own.

I think things like simple boat handling skills, emergency procedures and common sense seem to be missing with lots of over qualified 'Skippers'

[Channel Ribs]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I guess I've just Fkkd my chances up of getting any well paid work from you

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Are you also saying that I go to my favourite powerboat school give em a few k walk out, or hobble if we hit a few waves wrong, a wee while later with an advanced ticket with a commercial endorsement and I've only been assessed and not trained? Is the assesment based on Navigation skills more than passenger welfare.

Stuart - I'm not an examiner, so I'll leave commenting on exam specifics to the likes of Tim G, Ian W, Doug, Paul G etc.

Two paragraphs from me - one on the difference between the Advanced Course, Advanced Exam, and Commercial Endorsement, and one on aspects of an Advanced "Preparation" Course.

Courses/Exams/Paperwork:
The RYA Advanced Powerboat Course is a two day training programme, carried out an RYA Training Centre, by an Advanced PBI, or Powerboat Trainer. As a training course, and with a lot to fit in over two days when you may have leisure users looking to push their boat further, potential future skippers, and potential instructors looking to become Advanced Instructors, I certainly follow the RYA Syllabus as the bones of the course, as well as responding to specific questions/scenarios posed by me or the students, as and when they crop up. Course.

The Advanced Certificate of Competence (CoC) confusingly named "Advanced" as well, is an exam of around 4-5 hours for one candidate, during which the examiner can test any area of skippership, safety, powerboat handling and navigation knowledge. The examiner will have been appointed by the RYA from their pool of Powerboat Trainers, and Yachtmaster Examiners This exam can be taken by anyone, whether they intend to use it professionally or not. I do know a few people who have taken a Yachtmaster Exam for their own personal pride - but nobody who has done this on the Advanced CoC. I'm sure they're out there though! You must have VHF and First Aid before taking this. You do not need your Advanced Course Completion (or any other formal training for that matter) before taking this - but if often helps. Exam.

There are a number of course completion, and certificates of competence, that can, on application to the RYA and production of a few other documents, be commercially endorsed. One such is the Advanced CoC, which, if sent off with a £25 fee, ML5/ENG1 Medical, and Sea Survival Certificate, will, provided there are no issues with these items, be returned to you valid for use on commercial vessels. Paperwork.

I know you are aware of the above, and I am not patronising you - I'm posting in what is (hopefully) a logical layout, for the benefit of others reading this thread. At no point in the above do specific scenarios such as your Vertebrae incident etc specifically fit in - but the examiner will expect good answers to questions such as "are you going to run that charter from Poole to Plymouth in a Force 9 westerley?".

Advanced "Preparation" Course
Some of the better schools I work for, and of course others I don't work for, run some sort of Advanced CoC Exam Preparation course. This, if sold correctly, is entirely separate to the RYA Advanced Course, and it pretty much left to you as the Advanced Instructor with a Commercially Endorsed Advanced CoC to fill in any blanks you see fit - with guidance from the Centre Principal/Chief Instructor of course. This is not an "official" RYA thing, but preparation courses in various guise's have been around for years.

When I've done these courses, such questions do crop up, and I do ask questions of the students, for open discussion, on things like dealing with incidents at sea, what you say to the pregnant lady that's been put on your Rib by a charter boss that insists "it'll be fine" and what you do when you start taking on water mid course - you can't cover everything, and there's never a right or wrong answer to my mind. Discussion on these topics does help raise awareness though, and propagate good practice.

I would welcome your thoughts on these specific incidents you're mentioning, as it's always good (with no names of course) to have real life examples to draw on in training.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Trailer Bloke

common sense seem to be missing

Simon - whilst I can't disagree - this is something that you can't teach, and it's also very difficult to examine properly. Not sure what sort of solution there is for this one?

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

since June 2009

Stu - any reason for this particular time frame?

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

1an Hello,

Thats understood, but it's not an answer to my question. As I have previously stated I'm very commited to safety and I'd just like to know how much the RYA is, by hearing it from a recent student.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't have enough time to cover every aspect of safety, which ones do you cover? I

Are you also saying that I go to my favourite powerboat school give em a few k walk out, or hobble if we hit a few waves wrong, a wee while later with an advanced ticket with a commercial endorsement and I've only been assessed and not trained? Is the assesment based on Navigation skills more than passenger welfare.

I guess I've just Fkkd my chances up of getting any well paid work from you



Cheers stu:

Hi Stu,

Sorry - I can see I missed the point a little in only picking up on the Commerciual Endorsement aspect. I'll try again ...

I hope we're all committed to safety. This is my 30th year with the RNLI, and it's certainly pretty important to me.

The RYA is a very broad church, and the way that subjects are taught is always a bit of a cocktail made up of the experience of the instructor (and the candidate), the boat and the area, the conditions on the day, what the candidate hopes to do following the training - and just about every other variable you can think of to throw in.

I can really only speak for myself here. I try to teach and encourage my candidates to develop an attitude to safety that is based on principles rather than examples or specifics. I think it's important for them to consider all of the things that they can think of that might go wrong (and I'll add in any obvious ones they miss) and build strategies to deal with them should the worst happen. I certainly wouldn't want to think that their reaction would stop at "Bloody hell, we didn't cover this on the course!"

So we throw in lots of surprise scenarios during our courses: for example "Purely for exercise purposes, there's smoke pouring out from under the engine cover. What are you going to do?", or "Talk me through what you'd do if one of your passengers collapsed unconscious here?", or "What's the worst thing that you can think of going wrong at the moment?"

Risk assessments are important, and we include those of course, but we don't expect that we'll anticipate very possible problem and we also want people to be able to think on their feet

To be fair, I think you've misread my post too. My point about not covering every aspect of safety referred to exams, not training courses.

I can't say what would happen if you went to your favourite school, crossed their palms with silver etc etc, but you would only pass with me if you were up to standard. If someone is good enough and comes to me for assessment but has never been on a preparatory course, they need to be able to evidence twice as much experience and I would certainly be curious to see how they got on, but if they're good enough (including safe enough), they'll pass.

And wherever did I get a reputation for paying well?

[Rogue Wave]

reply to Jimbo

Try reading the MAIB reports plenty of names mentioned there

So the answer is no the RYA does not specifically cover the danger of spine compression injuries in it's process for churning out a commercial boat driver

It would appear from the comments made by Simeon (Trailer Bloke) a long term corporate operator that the result of all this training is inadequate.

I would still just love to here from a Stoodent on what they actually learnt about safety or for that matter Boat maintenance checks, fueling regs.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

Hi Stu,

And wherever did I get a reputation for paying well?

Don't worry I won't tell the rest of Scotland : I don't know how to link to a specific post but this is what you posted when Andy F was ofering some work so I presumed you were working on offshore rates. Youre reply to the safety stuff made a lot more sense to me..I'll have to think about it before I reply

Thanks
Sorry GoodGuys, don't like to rain on your pareade but this does not qualify as "quite well paid". The contracts we are managing at the moment are paying very significantly more than that. I think my skippers would throw me in if I suggested they work for £150 per day. Might be worth your while renegotiating with your clients
__________________
Ian W

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

1an Hello,

Thats understood, but it's not an answer to my question. As I have previously stated I'm very commited to safety and I'd just like to know how much the RYA is, by hearing it from a recent student.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't have enough time to cover every aspect of safety, which ones do you cover? I

Are you also saying that I go to my favourite powerboat school give em a few k walk out, or hobble if we hit a few waves wrong, a wee while later with an advanced ticket with a commercial endorsement and I've only been assessed and not trained? Is the assesment based on Navigation skills more than passenger welfare.

I guess I've just Fkkd my chances up of getting any well paid work from you



Cheers stu:

The Advanced Course is one thing the exam is separate from an independent examiner sourced either by the candidate or the school.
No decent school would put forward a candidate if they did not think the candidate had a strong chance of passing. Pre exam work ups are excellent to hone the skills and fill in any gaps as Jimbo has already said I am not a fan of schools that offer zero to hero courses that you mention in your scenario , they may have the tickets but not the experience and that you can't buy.

You are a RYA Advanced Instructor surely you know this already so not sure why you are asking about the RYA view.Ian is quite right safety is a big part of the exam but not every situation can be covered but safe practice and management of the boat and it's crew is one thing we are looking for.
The Injuries you mention would have been covered on a First Aid course a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course . Regarding breakdowns common sense is required to keep the boat and crew safe at all times by what ever action is appropriate for the conditions but the VHF DSC course will cover summoning assistance via either May Day or Pan Pan also a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course .
STCW95 run courses on customer care someone could be a great boat handler navigator but have poor people skills this is not a requirement for the Advanced course or the Exam .

Not sure where this thread is going and why the questions

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Stu - any reason for this particular time frame?

I'd speculate that its realated to the fact that the MAIB report on the Celtic Pioneer accident was published at the end of May... its surely not a coincidence that this resulted in a compression fracture to a vertebrae and this is another part of the question...

So I suggest that at least part of what Stu is asking is: "What has changed in the RYA Advanced training (or examination) since then? (or what were you already covering anyway to mitigate the risk and respond to such incidents)."

[Rogue Wave]

You might be a windbag but your'e on the case I've waited 6 months to pop the question.

[Rogue Wave]

It's not going where I wanted it to go because I'm not getting the answers from new commercially endorsed Skippers. I only asked one question, from a specific group of people and so far I haven't got an answer

Why The questions?

As an RYA Powewrboat instructor I am intesested in what is happening in practice and not theory. Having said that I haven't been looking for instructor work for over a year.

As a member of the RYA I'm intereated that my association is doing it's utmost to improve commercial powerboating safety.

As a commercial boat driver I sometimes am consulted to recommend people and levels of qualifications to my employers so it's good to know what people are coming out of the courses with. Also as a commercial boat driver it would be good to know what my new colleagues have been trained in. I'm also interested in wether the RYA have acted on the recommendations made to them by the MAIB re spinal injuries in 2009

I couldn't agree with you and Jimbo more re the Hero to Zero course, does this mean that yourself and Jimbo (i know you can't answer on his behalf) would not offer such a package?

I accept that the treatment of the injuries I mention would be covered on an RYA 1st aid course, but I'm far, far more concerned about prevention rather than cure so I'm interested in finding out how much input is put into helping new drivers avoid inflicting those injuries.

Re the communication issues, I wasn't referring to Customer Care Skills as such but the communication with passengers in an emergency/breakdown. I also accept that you can get get on the radio if you had a breakdown but it's a lot cooler if you can spot an issue before or whilst it's happening.
and prevent the breakdown.

I'd still love to hear from a recently qualified boat driver.

BTW for the record I don't think im a fantastic boat driver, everytime I think I'm adequate the sea has a way or reminding me that I'm not!

[Trailer Bloke]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

BTW for the record I don't think im a fantastic boat driver, everytime I think I'm adequate the sea has a way or reminding me that I'm not!

I agree

[Rogue Wave]

At least smebody agrees with me on something!

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Don't worry I won't tell the rest of Scotland : I don't know how to link to a specific post but this is what you posted when Andy F was ofering some work so I presumed you were working on offshore rates. Youre reply to the safety stuff made a lot more sense to me..I'll have to think about it before I reply

Thanks
Sorry GoodGuys, don't like to rain on your pareade but this does not qualify as "quite well paid". The contracts we are managing at the moment are paying very significantly more than that. I think my skippers would throw me in if I suggested they work for £150 per day. Might be worth your while renegotiating with your clients
__________________
Ian W

Well spotted indeed! I'm afraid, though, that instructing work doesn't pay as well as the commercial work I was referring to in that particular post. Although, to be fair, I still wouldn't expect to get away with paying instructors less than £200 a day ... thanks for keeping quiet about it, don't want everyone to know