RYA first aid certificates?

[Channel Ribs]

A member of our sailing club just cancelled their RYA First Aid at Sea course because they got one sent to them on the basis they had recognised shore-side training, having just done the FA Instructors course I am fairly sure this is not legitimately possible. But before going to the RYA I wanted to see what other instructors and coded skippers thought of this?

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by Channel Ribs

A member of our sailing club just cancelled their RYA First Aid at Sea course because they got one sent to them on the basis they had recognised shore-side training, having just done the FA Instructors course I am fairly sure this is not legitimately possible. But before going to the RYA I wanted to see what other instructors and coded skippers thought of this?

If the club member had a recognised first aid certificate why get another sent
does not make sense not legitimate sounds abit iffy.

.
Tim

[Ribochet]

It sounds as if are definitely issues there that have to be looked into in more detail and the RYA will be very glad to have a look at who signed and sent the certificate even if it all turns out to be bona fide.

[Channel Ribs]

Thanks both.

[andyxs]

If they have a first aid certificate from a uk body that qualifys them to equal or higher than the RYA cert why should they need to do another? just because it is RYA?

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by andyxs

If they have a first aid certificate from a uk body that qualifys them to equal or higher than the RYA cert why should they need to do another? just because it is RYA?

The RYA first aid course is an eight hour course which includes subjects that are specific to boating such as:

• the recovery position in a confined space
• CPR, including the drowning protocol
• cold shock and hypothermia fromimmersion and/or exposure
• seasickness and dehydration
• medical assistance or advice by VHF
• helicopter rescue

There are other first aid courses that include the above but these tend to be longer.

[willk]

It doesn't have to be RYA. STCW-95 courses will be acceptable too. I presume there are others?

CR, Do you know what "shore side" quals the person had?

[C2 RIBS]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn_280-2.pdf SCROLL DOWN TO ANNEX 3 point 2.8 (page 120)

[Channel Ribs]

Originally Posted by willk

It doesn't have to be RYA. STCW-95 courses will be acceptable too. I presume there are others?

CR, Do you know what "shore side" quals the person had?

Not sure at the moment, but favourite is emergency first aid at work.

[mark16]

Think the RYA would be intrested and the MCA, big fines from MCA if you get caught braking laws.

[Poly]

CR,

I'd make sure you are in possession of all the facts before flying off on one. If for example the "certificate" is not from the RYA and the 'trainee' does have the required training you could look rather petty/silly for trying to protect your own interests. Obviously if someone is issuing RYA (or other MCA approved) certificates without the necessary training being completed then its pretty serious - but your 'student' wouldn't be the first person to confuse the RYA and MCA or to describe something as a certificate which is not... similarly he wouldn't be the first person to be told he HAD to do an RYA course and then discover later that he could get his training elsewhere.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Channel Ribs

A member of our sailing club just cancelled their RYA First Aid at Sea course because they got one sent to them on the basis they had recognised shore-side training, having just done the FA Instructors course I am fairly sure this is not legitimately possible. But before going to the RYA I wanted to see what other instructors and coded skippers thought of this?

There is no mechanism for receiving an RYA First Aid certificate on the back of non RYA training. There is however a mechanism where other training is recognised and therefore the RYA First Aid is not required.

[Channel Ribs]

Originally Posted by Poly

I'd make sure you are in possession of all the facts before flying off on one.

Sage advice as ever.

And by posting my question on here I am trying to do that. Doug's answer is the clearest yet, if it is an RYA certificate and it was issued in recognition of other training then the centre have broken rules and perhaps regs.

It will be interesting to know if the cat c endorsement was applied, since they plan on using it as a coded skipper.

[Pikey Dave]

Wouldn't the HSE First Aid at Work cert, trump the RYA cert?

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Wouldn't the HSE First Aid at Work cert, trump the RYA cert?

ON one hand you could argue that a 3 day course would trump a one day course however the HSE FAW does not cover drowning or hypothermia or in fact any of the marine specific areas such as distress calling, cat C drugs and high line transfer.

On the other hand you could argue that the syllabus for the 3 day HSE course which budgets for regular tea breaks and long lunches could easily be taught in a far shorter time frame.

Either way the point here is that you cant receive a RYA First Aid Certificate unless you attend a one day course with a RYA First Aid Instructor.

[Skippy John]

Ditto the remarks of Doug for the MCA approved STCW 95 Elementary First Aid Certificate.

The MCA have in the past and will no doubt on the future remove approvals from Training Proviiders who don't comply with the requirements laid down in STCW, MNTB Short Course requirements and the MCA's own very specific requirments.

if anyone ever finds that a TP has issued a STCW 95 Certificate to anyone who hasn't attended the relevant course then they should seriously consider what actions they wish to take.

Happy New Year to you all
best regards

[wavelength]

the 3 day HSE course which budgets for regular tea breaks and long lunches

I was expecting great things from my 4 day medical first aid at sea course insisted on by my bigger boat owners. In particular more in depth teaching on hypothermia, sea sickness, wounds, major trauma etc in an environment remote from immediate outside help.-however we did indeed drink lotsa tea, had very long meal breaks, delved deep into nostalgia and actually managed to cover really no more than I would teach on a 1 day rya course, and much, much less than we would cover on hypothermia. Major disappointment and we wont be going back there for the next one.
Having said that the fire fighting was taught by the same instructor a few weeks later and it was brilliant, it really was his thing unike the 1st aid. Well it was bril afterwards, *!*@*! hot and scary at the time

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

On the other hand you could argue that the syllabus for the 3 day HSE course which budgets for regular tea breaks and long lunches could easily be taught in a far shorter time frame.

Originally Posted by wavelength

we did indeed drink lotsa tea, had very long meal breaks, delved deep into nostalgia and actually managed to cover really no more than I would teach on a 1 day rya course, and much, much less than we would cover on hypothermia.

But for a total newbie which is actually the better learning experience (assuming equivalent trainer skill!) a course where a whole load is shoehorned into one day because there is no way you can sell a two day course or a course (which used to be 4 days!) that covers similar content but with time to digest the content, more freedom for discussion and potential for hands on practice?

Having said that the fire fighting was taught by the same instructor a few weeks later and it was brilliant, it really was his thing unike the 1st aid.

therein lies the problem - but it must be an issue that crops up frequently on RYA courses - the trainer might be great at doing practical boat stuff but today he's been allocated the first aid class. Certainly my experience of all training (including but certainly not unique to the RYA) is that it varies hugely between centres and instructors within centres even if in theory they are all working to the same standard and syllabus.

[SDGANDER]

Originally Posted by wavelength

I was expecting great things from my 4 day medical first aid at sea course insisted on by my bigger boat owners. In particular more in depth teaching on hypothermia, sea sickness, wounds, major trauma etc in an environment remote from immediate outside help.-however we did indeed drink lotsa tea, had very long meal breaks, delved deep into nostalgia and actually managed to cover really no more than I would teach on a 1 day rya course, and much, much less than we would cover on hypothermia. Major disappointment and we wont be going back there for the next one.
Having said that the fire fighting was taught by the same instructor a few weeks later and it was brilliant, it really was his thing unike the 1st aid. Well it was bril afterwards, *!*@*! hot and scary at the time

I find that rather worrying. I did my ships captains medical course (as it was then) about 5.5 years ago and as an ex paramedic I found it reasonable simple but it added in techniques that paramedics are or at least then weren't allowed to perform like catheterisation and suturing.

I doubt very much that it could be fitted into a one day course especially if you are teaching people to cannulate and intubate. We also spend I think 4 hours in A&E to learn patient assessment.

SDG

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by SDGANDER

I find that rather worrying. I did my ships captains medical course (as it was then) about 5.5 years ago and as an ex paramedic I found it reasonable simple but it added in techniques that paramedics are or at least then weren't allowed to perform like catheterisation and suturing.

I doubt very much that it could be fitted into a one day course especially if you are teaching people to cannulate and intubate. We also spend I think 4 hours in A&E to learn patient assessment.

SDG

To clarify there are 4 different courses being discussed here

RYA First Aid (1 day) there are of course other 1 day courses from HSE, MCA and others

HSE First Aid at Work (3 days)

MCA STCW 95 Proficiency in Medical First Aid Aboard 3-4 days depending on which centre)

MCA STCW95 Proficiency in Medical Care Aboard Ship (4-5 days depending on which centre)

The 3 day HSE course is more thorough than the one day courses. Our FAW courses include Hypothermia and drowning although they are not actually on the HSE syllabus, however most of our customers are from the marine world

The 3-4 day MCA course does cover a bit more detail. The Medical Care (Ships Captains Medical) is a massive step up from all of the others. It goes well beyond "First Aid." Our lead First Aid Instructor is a paramedic himself, our Medical Care Instructor is however a retired consultant surgeon. The courses are a world apart.