RYA Powerboat Training Centres

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 10:06

In 2002 there was 506 RYA Powerboat Training Centres issuing 17690 level 2 certificates total per year.

In 2006 there was 1053 RYA Powerboat Training Centres issuing 24750 level 2certificates total per year.

Can this dilution go on?

Jono

tim griffin · 19 January 2007, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

In 2002 there was 506 RYA Powerboat Training Centres issuing 17690 level 2 certificates total per year.

In 2006 there was 1053 RYA Powerboat Training Centres issuing 24750 level 2certificates total per year.

Can this dilution go on?

Jono

A tough one to answer but .

Some areas have probably reached saturation point, but lots of schools also give up and cease trading . Its a very highly competitive market with a lot of choice out there. At the end of the day its down to the customer who they choose to provide their training.

There will always be a need for new Instructors in power boating and some may choose to start their own school and why not.
A good school will generate income via advertising reputation and word of mouth a new school will have to be patient in becoming established this takes about 3 to 5 years is my opinion.

I can't see the RYA stopping new schools opening as it would be hard to justify the reasoning behind it.

The totals you give are they for the UK only or the rest of the World as well .
Just my thoughts .

John Kennett · 19 January 2007, 12:43

Has there been much take up of the Intermediate course? If all powerboat courses were included rather than just L2 would the 2006 total be much higher?

John

Doug Stormforce · 19 January 2007, 15:37

Jono and Tim

Intresting question but both of you like us are comparitavly new schools, you only have to go back a couple of years further and all three of us are part of the dilution.

Intrestingly we were discussing this yesterday with Dan Hooper (Southern rep)my own thoughts were that there is easy entry to setting up an RYA powerboat school. To become a dinghy, windsurf motor cruising or yachting school you have to jump through a few more hoops namely serving a bit of time as an instructor first. Having said that we still have more crusining school than customers in this region.

It appears to me that the RYA are activly encouraging more instructors to become centres. As you know Im usually the one who sticks up for the RYA but on this matter alll I can guess is that it sataifies someones ego to quote how many centres there are. The system is becoming to top heavy.

Its the YMI conference tommorro and I will raise thsi point (again), thanks for the figures Jono- I will maybe quote them, I assume they are from Paul Mara or someone.

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Has there been much take up of the Intermediate course?

Its been great for us, I would guess we issued about 50 certificates in 2006.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

If all powerboat courses were included rather than just L2 would the 2006 total be much higher?

I dont have the figures for all the other course, however in my opinion and experiance Level 2 is about 95% of the certificates issued.

My opinion is if the RYA keeping letting new RYA Training Centres set up, the market slowly gets expands but more and more people are eating in to the market, eventually there will be not enough business for everyone, which may result in the quality & kit standards dropping and shortcuts in safety & insurance cover.

In my opinion the RYA will have to sort it sooner or later, I personally think it needs to happen before we see quality & kit standards dropping and shortcuts in safety & insurance cover.

Jono

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I assume they are from Paul Mara or someone.

RYA Training Office

The RYA's Quote "The RYAs job is to ensure they all meet our standards"

Jono

tim griffin · 19 January 2007, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Jono and Tim

Intresting question but both of you like us are comparitavly new schools, you only have to go back a couple of years further and all three of us are part of the dilution.

Very true and you both are going to do your Trainers Course so are we making the situation worse .

Maybe some schools will merge to survive and maybe others will give up
who knows .
Not sure about equipment standards and Insurance dropping as the Inspectors do a good job to see if schools are up to the job.
Let us know the results Doug

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Trainers Course so are we making the situation worse .

I don't believe so, as there are more trainers retiring/moving away and we haven't had a new trainer in North Wales for a few years.

wavelength · 19 January 2007, 21:24

and what do you propose as an answer to your perceived problem then Jono?

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 21:40

Hi Dave

Do you see things carrying on in a positive manner with over 2 new Powerboat Training Centers opening every week.

In my opinion every new application should be closely looked at and the following considered-

- Other Training Centres in the area
- Potential Customers in the area (IE is it a big boating area)
- Type of customer IE purely trade, commercial or specialist.
- Will the centre have an impact on the other Training Centres?

The RYA could also Increase the Annual Recognition fee to discourage the the schools that conduct 3 or 4 courses per year.

On top of this the RYA could conduct 3rd party checks on the instruction from the students, like with the VHF Course, to ensure the quality is kept high.

Just my thoughts, id like to hear other peoples views,

Jono

wavelength · 19 January 2007, 22:00

Quote:

The RYA could also Increase the Annual Recognition fee to discourage the the schools that conduct 3 or 4 courses per year.

so what harm are these small schools doing to you then if they are only doing that amount of courses???????

Aidan · 19 January 2007, 22:11

Age old problem here.
Competition increases quality of service and lowers cost but up to a point where it begins to destroy it.

Would you be happy with same crew (who I am sure get a per capita share of course reg) as in RYA deciding on who should be providing licenses.
What if you were waiting on yours and they said no.

What if the amount, type and level of courses increased.
I believe that one cannot learn the level required in such a short timeframe.

I have seen some friends who have taken these courses and passed and are taking their boats out to dangerous places in dangerous conditions breaking all proper rules and they think they know it all. They hardly know the sharp end from blunt end and none (most) of them do not have radio VHF licenses.

At some stage having a cert gives a false of security... I suggest that the courses are broken down to modules and expanded with safety first and case studies investigated... The extra courses and levels will keep all happy xcept the gung ho who want to know it all it a flash..
Exactly what we need.

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 22:11

Hi Dave

Nothing to me or my school personally, but "if" the RYA were going to monitor Center Numbers closely they would need to be a way off discouraging centres that arent really active.

By increasing the annual recognition fee it may also encourage the average instructor with a rib to work for another school rather than setting up a new centre.

A few years ago it was much harder to set up a school, these days you can simply approach a number of trainers who will do you a set of risk assessments and a safety policy/operating procedures manual.

I don't think we are in a particular diluted area as we have an increase in boat sold every year. However when you look at the south coast its just getting stupid.

Jono

Jimbo · 19 January 2007, 22:14

This all reads a bit like another desire to pull up the ladder after you've climbed onto the roof, and not let anyone else join you.

In my opinion (which may not be the best thought through as I haven't considered this subject for very long - only since Jono started the thread) any issue should be focused more on quality, and not quantity.

I do believe the RYA should try and do more in the way of mock student inspections where they come on a course and don't tell the centre, and I think they should continue to enforce a high standard of training. Beyond that, who really has the right to prevent the owner of a centre that measures up to their requirements to get set up, run, and issue certificates from attempting to earn a living in what is a very standard driven industry?

RYA Training is a very competetive industry as it is, and not just due to the actual number of centres competing for the work, it's due to a consumer demand for better value for money mainly (notice I didn't say lower cost!). As it's so competetive, if you're going to get involved in it on a commercial level, it usually has to be a very well thought through decision in order for you to succeed.

Jimbo · 19 January 2007, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan

At some stage having a cert gives a false of security... I suggest that the courses are broken down to modules and expanded with safety first and case studies investigated... The extra courses and levels will keep all happy xcept the gung ho who want to know it all it a flash..
Exactly what we need.

I think a lot of the problem here is that there is no legal requirement to hold a "license" for using a sub 24m craft in the UK (A situation which, currently, I hope will not change!), unless you are using the vessel for commercial purposes. As there is no legal requirement, any training undertaken is usually voluntary, and as such, demand dictates supply. I don't think people would pay for training through a system they found to be particularly onerous and restrictive, unless they had to.

So, a middle ground has to be reached, where you try and offer an attractively priced option, that doesn't eat into days off/leisure time enough to cause annoyance, whilst still offering training that is of value and will boost course students knowledge. It's not a perfect system (I've yet to find a perfect system for anything!) but instead of taking it at face value, look at the reasons behind it!

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

This all reads a bit like another desire to pull up the ladder after you've climbed onto the roof, and not let anyone else join you.

I like the saying, but the fact is the roofs not getting much bigger but people keep climbing on.

I cant help but feeling guilty that ive to climbed on the ladder, but thats life.

Jimbo · 19 January 2007, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

By increasing the annual recognition fee it may also encourage the average instructor with a rib to work for another school rather than setting up a new centre.

Is this actually the case? I don't know the figures, but I would have thought that given the hoops you have to jump through to set up a centre, and the amount of competition out there, this is not something many instructors are doing?

I could be wrong, but I would suspect that "one man bands" with the capability, drive, and funding to find a suitable classroom, changing rooms, and launching facility for their rib and go through the process of getting RYA recogntion make up a fairly small percentage of centres out there?

I'm ready to stand corrected if your figures show me to be wrong!

Jimbo · 19 January 2007, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

I like the saying, but the fact is the roofs not getting much bigger but people keep climbing on.

Good answer! Could we perhaps take my weak analogy further and hypothesise that inevitably, without external input, the roof will collapse?

Jono Garton · 19 January 2007, 22:30

Jimbo

I see what you saying, but its so easy to set up now, all you need is -

-A RIB
-Classroom (The RYA say a Caravan or your front room is fine)
-Risk Assessments & Safety Policy/Operating Procedures (some trainers will do these for £150)
-Insurance (which the RYA don't check anymore)

Quick visit from the RYA and your away.

If the figures carry on the way they are going in 10 years time there will be half the amount of certificates issued per a Training Centre than there was in 2002.

Jono

whiteminiman · 19 January 2007, 22:35

Of course a new centre is going to have an impact on other training centres. Simple rules of supply and demand. Why is that a reason not to grant somebody's application? "I've been established ten years, so that means you can't set up a school near me"... where's the logic?

More choice = buyers market = only the strong/good will survive.

What is wrong with a school only running 3-4 courses a year? What is to say that they are any better/worse than those who run them twice a week?

Some of these centres could be sailing clubs - who have the Powerboat Training aspect simply to keep themselves supplied with safety boat drivers, or diving clubs who don't want to pay commercial prices for the boat handlers, and decide they can make a bit of money for the club by offering PB2 courses to members.

Not that it makes a blind bit of difference to me - I'm just playing devils advocate.

Cheers, WMM