Safety Boats - Should they be coded?

Jono Garton · 18 May 2009, 20:29

Our local sailing club hosts allot of events. They recently hosted the Honda Formula 4 Stroke powerboat racing, to which I believe they were paid money for safety boats and taking out camera crews.

Should they be coded?

Jono

chewy · 18 May 2009, 21:17

Yep of course they should.
Wasn't it Earth Race that got bollocked for taking some people out who gave them some sandwiches?

C2 RIBS · 18 May 2009, 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

Should they be coded?

Jono

Mark Towl at MCA will tell us yes to coding Safety Boats unless they fall into class9 a workboat and in catergorised waters, (not sure exactly what this means!) but otherwise it appears yes.

(MCA document OAN 333revision3)

CJL · 18 May 2009, 22:45

The Port of London have recently started a crack down on this and IMHO I think that everybody should support it.

Local BSAC clubs have been putting out small unreliable ribs, one up with a PB2 and charging a minimum of £250 per day! For that price you'd expect something reliable and effective for your money.

They are taking the money from the charitable rowing clubs and the legit businesses.

Heart-trouble · 18 May 2009, 22:50

Bsac?

Tim M · 18 May 2009, 23:25

Divers to you and me! I would have said yes to the original question as well. Just in the process of coding CJLs old Ribtec

Poly · 19 May 2009, 00:17

I'm going to suggest they don't need coded.

MGN280 -

Pleasure vessel is defined as:

(c) a vessel -
(i) which is owned by or on behalf of the members of a members’ club,
(ii) which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of a member of that club, his immediate family or his guest, and
(iii) for the use of which no payment is made other than a payment into the funds of the members club which funds are applied for the general use of the members club.

3.1.3 then says: Pleasure vessels are excepted from the code, and included in the definition of pleasure vessels are those vessels wholly owned by or on behalf of a members club. Reference should be made to the Regulations for a proper description of the conditions that need to be met for a members’ club vessel to claim exception as a pleasure vessel.... (which is the definition above)

Most sailing clubs will meet the definition of "members club" used in MGN280.

The only "dodgy" bit might be if the boat is being used "only for the sport or pleasure of a member of that club, his immediate family or his guest" but I think if the club is hosting a sporting event and the skipper of the boat is giving his time free of charge then we can assume it is for the sport and his pleasure and that anyone else on that boat is his guest.

Trell · 20 May 2009, 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

Our local sailing club hosts allot of events. They recently hosted the Honda Formula 4 Stroke powerboat racing, to which I believe they were paid money for safety boats and taking out camera crews.

Should they be coded?

Jono

Of course they should be coded, corectly insured, correctly crewed, but hey one law here one law there, ok till something goes wrong.

Jono Garton · 20 May 2009, 08:31

Polwart

You are a wealth of information and a valued member of this forum, in fact totally at the other end of the scale from codders.

Thanx for views guys.

Jono

Doug Stormforce · 20 May 2009, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

I believe they were paid money for safety boats and taking out camera crews.
Jono

I dont think MGN280 says that this activity is excempt

andyxs · 20 May 2009, 15:12

I think that they were silly to take a camera crew out like that but expecting every club to code their ribs would sorta crush aloto them as most never take out paying customers and only render assistence to those in need. I am not sure what the law says but surley some common sense should be applied (not taking out a camera crew in a cramped 5m should have been common sense) as well lots of clubs borrow members ribs for large events. coding would make it prohibitivley expensive and would only stand to reduce safety levels as clubs would put out fewer ribs to deal with the costs as safety boat/ competitor ratios would be hiked up.

C2 RIBS · 20 May 2009, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I dont think MGN280 says that this activity is excempt

Hi Doug been sad and reading through 280 and cannot find this, I thought it was OK if not done for hire or reward(money) then it had to be coded, if this is the case then I presume the RIB on the start of this thread needed coding?
I agree clubs membership do not need this if run by members for members, but what happens when say a big sailing club has an open race meetng for other clubs and people to compete as I used to do with dinghys, I saw outside RIBS brought in to help with safety cover, I guess this will be the grey area.

hobbit555 · 20 May 2009, 19:22

MGN 280 is not law currently Would be under brown code
If its the BBC or similar they should pay a charter fee and use a coded boat

Poly · 20 May 2009, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Hi Doug been sad and reading through 280 and cannot find this, I thought it was OK if not done for hire or reward(money) then it had to be coded, if this is the case then I presume the RIB on the start of this thread needed coding?
I agree clubs membership do not need this if run by members for members, but what happens when say a big sailing club has an open race meetng for other clubs and people to compete as I used to do with dinghys, I saw outside RIBS brought in to help with safety cover, I guess this will be the grey area.

But thats not actually what the regs say is it? See my earlier post. I previously looked into this for the sort of situation you describe: club X hosts the class Y championships and club X gets a payment to cover use of facilities safety boats etc. My conclusion was that coding did not apply to members clubs if the club met the criteria and the crew were doing it for pleasure (not being paid). The only difference is there is also a camera crew here - but the rules don't describe what the boats used for - and clubs can film there own work if they wish.

Perhaps someone who is convinced it is wrong can post the exact rule which is being broken?

Jono Garton · 21 May 2009, 08:09

I've had a word with a friend who's in the know and deals with the mca on a regular basis, and while the code isn't clear the MCA’s interpretation is that they accept members paying a fee for use of a club launch as a ferry, but when a person is carried on the vessel for his or her business activity, and pays a fee or “a donation”, then that is clearly a commercial operation, and the boat is operating as a commercial workboat.

Also would their insurers be happy, as any commercial use of the boat would probaly be specifically excluded from the policy?

Jono

havener · 21 May 2009, 20:58

If you carry out any activity for commercial gain, irrespective of who owns that boat, you should be coded appropriately.

Don't forget there is also the rescue boat code coming soon, defining vessels "provided for the public good" - this won't apply to club activities, but again stepping outside any activity strictly for members etc will start falling into one code or the other.

At the very least, I believe the RYA should be more active in inspecting the safety boats, equipment and training of their member clubs. I've done cover for various events at which the level of ability and knowledge of the club safety boat has been beyond shocking.

Poly · 21 May 2009, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by havener

If you carry out any activity for commercial gain, irrespective of who owns that boat, you should be coded appropriately.

except thats not actually the wording of the regulations, (and the question would then be if the club gained commercially, and how much of the total "hosting fee" was for the boat).

Matt Riley · 22 May 2009, 19:37

Surely it also pays to consider whether it is physically possible to code a 4m searider or ribcraft 4.8 or jaffa 3.6?

From the RYA website (my bold)

Quote:

So why certificate a boat? If the boat is British and is to be used commercially at sea it is a requirement that it is SCV Certificated by one of the MCA Certification Authorities such as the RYA. Commercial use broadly means engaged in activities on a commercial basis, even if not for payment, carrying cargo or passengers. Pleasure vessels and club owned boats are excluded from the scope of the Code. It is also possible to gain some tax relief on company-owned commercial boats, and it may well be that the savings outweigh the cost of SCV Certification. Please view our current price lists and forms. If you require additional information please contact us.

I'm definitely well up for better training and higher quality kit. Perhaps we could implement a cheap version of the RYA RTE inspection for clubs, with those with unsafe working practices/no child protection rules/unservicable rescue boats disafilliated? Alternatively we could sort out a kind of (maybe RYA?) co-ordinated 'pro bono' scheme where newly qualified (and maybe even kind, experienced) PBIs give a weekend or two of their time for free to help out the rag and stick brigade.

M

codprawn · 23 May 2009, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

Polwart

You are a wealth of information and a valued member of this forum, in fact totally at the other end of the scale from codders.

Thanx for views guys.

Jono

Just can't resist can you??? Good job not everyone is as nasty and spiteful..........

At least I don't take every opportunity to get personal digs in!!!

Jon Brooks · 24 May 2009, 09:11

I am in the "should be coded" camp. I can see why "club" boats maybe excluded but is a private boat is used on behalf of a club then what?
Is it correctly insured? Have the crew got the right skills and or quals?

A club boat and or crew are not being paid. If it is a private boat and the fuel is paid for in what ever means its finacial gain then coded.

We carry £5mill public liabilty cover, how many private boats have that?
It all well and good to do it un coded until it all goes wrong and they find that the camera kit was not insured and nor were the "passengers"

All IMHO of course