sea temperature

[Terence]

I had a convo with the boss today , and he had just heard that on the west coast of scotland operators are being asked to monitor the sea temp ,
if it falls below a certain temp then immersion suits and 220 N lifejackets must be carried on board a trip boat.

any one shed any light on this.

Do skippers require off shore sea survival training as well?

as always im more than a liitle confused.

[Tony Hill]

Terence
The Professional Boatman's Association have kindly agreed to investigate on behalf of a number of West Coast of Scotland members. I will keep you posted

Tony

[northcol]

Hi Terance,
According to MGN 280 (MCA Small vessels in commercial use) "When a vessel is operating in waters of sea surface temperature of 10ºC or less, each person on board should have either an approved immersion suit, a dry suit or other efficient garment to reduce the likelihood of hypothermia should the wearer enter the sea. Sea temperature data may be found in sources such as the Admiralty Pilot for a given sea area and period"
...also, all RYA Skipper's must hold a basic Sea survival ticket to be Commercially endorsed.
Cheers, Col

[treerat]

Plymouth Sound is currently 8degrees - I dosn't see the cremal ferry and other boats wearing / carrying them?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by treerat

Plymouth Sound is currently 8degrees - I dosn't see the cremal ferry and other boats wearing / carrying them?

that looks like a "big" ferry - so more than 12 pax which MGN280 refers to...

[Terence]

Thanks for the replies,

Tony , i will patiently await a response,

... As for the sea survival , i am already commercially endorsed and hold MCA RYA sea survival , i was wondering if further training would be required to meet this criteria.

ill do some reading of MGN 280.

[Pikey Dave]

There are loads of boats run out of Seahouses to the Farnes taking tourists to see the seals & puffins. Most of 'em are licensed to carry "up to 12 passengers". Bearing in mind the sea temp gets upto about 12C at the end of August & hovers around the 6-8 mark until July, it could get interesting.
Are there any exemptions to the rule, distance from safe haven etc?

[Tony Hill]

Passenger vessels operating under MGN 280 (Yellow/Brown code soon possibly to be Harmonised Code)
Section 22.9.1.2 When sea temperatures are 10 degrees or below

The interpretation from Mark Towl MCA Policy Branch Southampton is
quoted from e mail

when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard to reduce the likelihood of hypothermia should the wearer enter the water. That could mean a floatation suit or anything else that is suitable. I would not foresee that a set of wet-weather clothing would necessarily be suitable. The garment would need to have some form of thermal insulation properties when worn in the sea.

The RYA was asked for comment, Bas Edmunds RYA Technical manager supports the above

MGN 280 – 22.9.1.2 is fairly clear in its wording. “Or other efficient garment2 is taken to provide the same function as an immersion suit or dry suit. Wet weather gear alone does not provide any form of insulation nor does it prevent the ingress of water when the user is immersed.

When BAS Edmunds was asked directly whether vessels operating in water temps of 10 degrees or less would therefore in his opinion be required to carry immersion/floatation suits for all passengers the reply was

Essentially yes. As mentioned this is part of the owner/skippers responsibility to provide these. It is not a requirement that they are worn but more that they are available.
Generally our experience of the inspectorate branch of the MCA is that they are very thorough – certainly I would support this

Some further issues for consideration of coded vessels
Floatation suits - child sizes are not available.
Immersion suits one size fits all, I doubt this for a child. Our local public passenger ferry (10 persons) carries babies and primary school children throughout the year
MGN 396 effective 1st Jan 2010 states that those wearing clothing such as above the lifejacket should be 275N.

Mark Towl was contacted regarding the position of small ferries. He states that ferries > 12 passengers do not carry the same risks. Under 12 passengers then rules will apply. There is no intention to amend.

On the west coast of Scotland (Oban area) our information is the sea temperature remains at 10 degrees or less between mid November and mid June.

These regulations if implemented will have a serious consequence on all sectors of the small passenger boat sectors

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Tony Hill

Floatation suits - child sizes are not available.
Immersion suits one size fits all, I doubt this for a child. Our local public passenger ferry (10 persons) carries babies and primary school children throughout the year
MGN 396 effective 1st Jan 2010 states that those wearing clothing such as above the lifejacket should be 275N.

Tony,

Immersion suits are available in child sizes (http://www.crewsaver.co.uk/NetsiteCM....html?catid=64)

I think flotation cots (as carries on aircraft) are intended to provide thermal protection for babies.

275N may not be appropriate for children (even in a suit) - c.f. the "Army Cadet accident (which was a 400ish N jacket - but still).

And is the ferry coded under MCA or local regs?

[The Grocer]

This is the relevant wording -

"It is the responsibility of an owner/managing agent/skipper to advise that the following requirements for items of personal clothing should be met:"

I would understand this to mean that the o/ma/s must tell the passengers and crew that such items are recommended but are not compulsory; otherwise it would state that the o/ma/s will provide such items and that they must be worn in the conditions indicated.

[Tony Hill]

The intention to update anyone interested

The golden rule accepted is always don't have the accident.

A guidance notice is just that but consider the consequence to business of having to advise customers that they are inappropriately dressed without a suitable suit. The customer is either likely to expect to be provided with suitable clothing (or the boat to be carrying such) or walk away.

Immersion suits for children, I stand corrected however as a commercial operator three issues immediately spring to mind
1. The cost implication to have 12 suits aboard
2. The appropriate correct storage implication of expensive suits
3. Carrying sufficient stock to cover the range of customers visiting our passenger operation. Customers range from 5 years old to 'super giants' who will be in excess of 25 stone.
3. carrying the suitable lifejackets relative to the customer following the donning of the suit.
The local 'ferry' is brown/yellow code <12 passengers. We call it a ferry but it operates as a small commercial vessel.

Members of Argyll Charter Boat Association and the Professional Boatman's Association are expressing concern. Raising operator awareness in all related sectors is considered important

[redbay11]

Hello

Totally agree with you Tony its crazy that boat holding more than 12 pax doesn’t apply.
This is going to hit small operators hard with the cost of getting the suits and different sizes, also a small person in a big suit would be very dangerous if in the water.
Hopefully they will see sense.

Cheers Struan

[Tony Hill]

MGN 280 22.9.1.2 - Harmonised code - possible introduction late 2011

This thread has more up to date information and its title is more appropriate