smallest permisable rib for coding?

mickjones · 29 December 2006, 04:15

hi

i have been looking through the forum over the last few days and may have missed it but cannot find the answer to my question...i see there are a lot of peeps in the know on here so hoping some advice may come my way

Q - i am looking to introduce a boat facility to my kitesurfing school that i operate. i teach from land like most people, but feel that on certain days, offshore kiting would be preferable

conditions for this i would insist would be less than 20knots (much less most of the time as teaching beginners!!) and a fairly flat sea state since the wind would be offshore. heading no more than 10 miles MAX from the launch, fair weather

so - size is a factor here, in terms of trailerability, affordablility and necessity. i would be taking no more than 4 people out, with only one student in the water at a time. this means cllients wearing wetsuits, BA's, and me taking two kites and two boards max

what then, based on the above, is the smallest rib i could get coded? would i even need coding if i am not charging any more for the boat lessons than the land lessons, and was just using the boat when it was needed, not as a selling point? i am aware that some schools are using jet skis for this type of thing...should i just get a jet ski?

thanks in advance for help

Paul Glatzel · 29 December 2006, 10:14

Mick

Hi, i haven't had a chance to look this up but i think the answer is now 6m - but i could be wrong. I used to have our 5.6 Avon coded for 4 people and one of the key constraints that you will encounter is storage. A 6m with a few pods will do the job nicely and have space for the liferaft.

Feel free to post further questions if you can't find the answer on the MCA website. - suggest too you speak to John Fearnley at Mecal - www.mecal.co.uk. He's down your way and codes RIBs and will be able to answer you definitively

Regards

Paul

Jono Garton · 29 December 2006, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickjones

should i just get a jet ski?

Hi Mick

I wouldn't use a jet ski as the reliability, even on a new one would be an issue. There is a new code coming out for jet ski's I'm told.

I totally agree with Paul, anything smaller than 6m and you would have problems fitting all the kit in a coded boat.

In the RYA scheme, school boats are allowed to operate 3nm from a nominated departure point. May be worth checking if the BKSA (British Kite Surfing Association) have a similar agreement with the MCA.

When talking to MCA or Surveyors it may be worth pointing out you are more of a safety boat than doing trips etc. I'm told there is also a new code for safety/rescue boat coming out or may of come out.

If you are also operating commercially your are also entitled to about 50p a litre rebate of fuel.

Hope this helps.

Jono

tim griffin · 29 December 2006, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickjones

so - size is a factor here, in terms of trailerability, affordablility and necessity. i would be taking no more than 4 people out, with only one student in the water at a time. this means cllients wearing wetsuits, BA's, and me taking two kites and two boards max

what then, based on the above, is the smallest rib i could get coded? would i even need coding if i am not charging any more for the boat lessons than the land lessons, and was just using the boat when it was needed, not as a selling point? i am aware that some schools are using jet skis for this type of thing...should i just get a jet ski?

thanks in advance for help

H Mick
I think you will need a coded rib and 6m sounds about right depending on layout and deck space for recovery of the kite surfer and transporting your clients offshore as well as being suitable to provide safety cover for the activity.
You will also need if you do not already have all the relevant qualifications to operate the rib.Commercial endorsed Advanced Powerboat , VHF,First Aid and Sea Survival and Insurance to cover the activity you propose I would check this first as it may be too expensive to run this type of service.
Even though you are not charging anymore than land based tuition it is still a service/option you are offering your clients , so I think it would still come under MCA coding requirements .

I would do as Paul suggested and contact Mecal to see what you require to code the rib and if 6m is suitable also your insurers to see if it is going to be cost effective perhaps you may have to increase your pricing for this particuar service/option.
Good luck with it all and let us know what happens

mickjones · 29 December 2006, 14:00

thankyou for the replies so far

i have taken my PBL2 and will be upgrading that to advance level in a couple of months. i have taken the sea survival, VHF and day skipper theory too

i think the costings can be passed onto the customers no problem, as it will be a premium service

what concerns me still at this stage is that i buy a boat, and realise it cant get coded. i've tried reading through the MCS newsletter on codes etc...so i'll speak to MECA (sp) about the requirements of the boat

when you take the kitesurfing qualification you can only receive the award if you have a PBL2, as they feel that at some stage you will be operating a rescue craft. seems that if you need a coded vessel and commercial endorsments, then that PBL2 is a waste of time since once you jump in the boat to rescue someone you are breaking the law

mickjones · 29 December 2006, 14:21

hi all

just spoken to someone 'in the know' at the BKSA - and he has concurred with the info you guys have kindly supplied so far, that kitesurfing schools will come under the coding regs

some schools havent been able to adapt to the change and so are using surf canoes or paddle boards as rescue craft

just about to give mecal a call and then will start looking for a boat

i'll let you know how i get on!

one more question - think i know the answer here though...a good friend has a nice motorboat down here, it's got showers, cooking, cabins for changing in etc...if he is anchored off near where i'm intending to teach, are the punters allowed to board his vessel for a shower or to change?

tim griffin · 29 December 2006, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickjones

when you take the kitesurfing qualification you can only receive the award if you have a PBL2, as they feel that at some stage you will be operating a rescue craft. seems that if you need a coded vessel and commercial endorsments, then that PBL2 is a waste of time since once you jump in the boat to rescue someone you are breaking the law

Your original question was not reference safety cover more an addition to what you already offer hence the need for a coded rib.

The BKSA realise that there boat training could be improved the pb2 allows you to offer safety boat cover for kitesurfing under the BKSA training programme but does fall short on actual hours spent doing rescue scenarios. Have a chat with Andy Gratwick BKSA Training Officer re this also why not come down to Poole April 21st for the Kitesurfing Rescue Seminar this has been organised specifically for you guy's with the BKSA RLSS UK MCA and open to RYA Instructors and Safety Boat operators will give us all a chance to put in our 2p worth and may even lead BKSA developing there own programme should be a fun day and a good chance to share knowledge across a broad section of water users

mickjones · 29 December 2006, 19:45

thanks again for reply tim

i will admit that i am a little confused as to where the safety boat ends and the other boat takes over if you get me, and hadn't really thought about the differences. hence the toing and froing of my posts

so a safety boat that can operate under the BKSA with PBL2 at the moment would just be a boat sat in the water, ready to spring into action for the kiters kiting from the land. and it cant be used to move people about, as my original post describes - is this correct?

tim griffin · 29 December 2006, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickjones

thanks again for reply tim

so a safety boat that can operate under the BKSA with PBL2 at the moment would just be a boat sat in the water, ready to spring into action for the kiters kiting from the land. and it cant be used to move people about, as my original post describes - is this correct?

As I see it yes
one is providing safety cover from the shore to Kitesurfers who get into difficulty and who cannot self rescue.

The other option you mentioned is to take students offshore max 10 miles for tuition (a bit like a commercial dive boat )so you are carrying passengers to a particular place the awkward bit is that you also need to supply safety cover as well while the student is up in the air and then transport all the students back to shore after the session is over.You would need to clarify this with the MCA and the BKSA as this is only my opinion .

mickjones · 02 January 2007, 17:13

hi tim and/or other knowledgeable chaps and chapesses

i've been talking to the MCGA regarding safety boat coding and have been forwarded a very long list - much of which i was surprised to find i understood!

but so many of the guidelines are vague. i was expecting a list of cat A B C and D requirements, relating to things such as minimum craft size, engine power, number of crew etc...the only figures i could see related to min. freeboard and transom heights

my problem is i don't want to buy a boat that cannot comply with the code. money is an inhibiting factor here. i am considering not going down the route of taking punters out to sea, and offering instead safety boat cover for the punters and events too to make up for it.

so basically, for kitesurf rescue cover, within site of land, covering either 1 punter at a time or up to 4 pro kiters (comp) can anyone offer guidance as to the following?

1) min crew required
2) approx size of boat
2) engine power

sorry if it looks like i am going on a bit, but after making many phone calls today i feel i am not much further forward and the best info rests here on the fora

i just need to know where i should start looking

thanks all, hope you all had a good new years

tim griffin · 02 January 2007, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickjones

so basically, for kitesurf rescue cover, within site of land, covering either 1 punter at a time or up to 4 pro kiters (comp) can anyone offer guidance as to the following?

1) min crew required
2) approx size of boat
2) engine power

sorry if it looks like i am going on a bit, but after making many phone calls today i feel i am not much further forward and the best info rests here on the fora

i just need to know where i should start looking

thanks all, hope you all had a good new years

For safety cover a guy I know uses a Zap Kat for his kitesurfing school he is based in Fareham ,so do a couple of lifeguard clubs but they are on the Thames . A SIB (soft inflateable boat) would be ideal and cheaper.
Have a look at the ceasarmarine surfcat package www.ceasarmarine.com
comes in at around £5,276.59p with a Honda BF30SHU can take a 50hp would suggest a prop guard £170.20p length is 4.10 metrs cat c waters passengers 3 225kg
Max passengers plus load 250kg

Also others to look at Arancia
Zodiac futura
Bombard
Achilles
Stingray vittesse
all come in around 3.8 to 4.4 and can handle a variety of engine sizes all capable of providing safety cover from the beach in site of land

Min crew required 2= helm and crew
Engine 30hp to 50 hp.
All the above and a couple more I have probably missed off are favoured by beach lifeguard units SLSA GB and the RNLI favour the Arancia
Andy Gratwick BKSA Training officer should give you the lowdown on what all the other schools use .
As I said we are having a kitesurf rescue seminar at Powerboat Training UK Poole in April try and come Andy is going to email all Instructors but a good time to share knowledge and see what the others are using as well as some hands on rescue practice.
Hope it has given you some food for thought.
Regards Tim

mickjones · 02 January 2007, 20:07

tim that is just the sort of guidance i am looking for. i need to cost this up to see if i can be 'fit' for it - if i can afford to be a safety boat operator. if wont be able, i need to know asap. well i think i can come in under budget on the initial purchase of the boat. the additional items i will be able to fund also

i think it's essential that i get to the training seminar at hayling island. are there spaces left? i had a look on the website link on the other thread but couldnt find the course on there. i want to do it so can you put me down for that?

its very pleasing that the BKSA is moving forwards like this

right. i'm going to start looking for a boat!

tim griffin · 03 January 2007, 08:29

Hi Mick
Contact Paul Glatzel at Powerboat Training UK I dont think the seminar features on his website but if you speak to him or Viv they will point you in the right direction as to how to book it.
Paul has kindly offered to host the event in Poole April 21st Cobbs Quay.Andy Gratwick BKSA Training Officer is out of the country at the moment (Lucky Devil) but is going to call me reference the day's content cost for the day is £75 this will include boats, fuel , classroom facilities and the Kitesurfing equipment the idea is to make it as hands on as possible for all those attending should be a fun day.
Pauls contact details are as follows.
www.powerboat-training-uk.co.uk
email paul@powerboattraining.co.uk
Phone 01202 686666