Stupid question time - Page 2

Skippy John · 20 June 2013, 08:09

Allow me to possibly shed some light on why the RYA has had to 'beef up' the Commercial Endorsement for all CoC's with the PPR Course and the changes for the Commercial APB CoC amongst other CoC's.

It must be remembered that the RYA issue CoC's under the authority of the MCA and, due to various incidents and accidents, the MAIB have made recommendations that both MCA and RYA have to consider and act upon. Without going into great detail this is the fundamental reason for the changes.

What we all have to remember is that the RYA Commercially Endorsed CoC's are now more prevalent and are used for many more types of vessels operating in many more sectors of the Marine Industry. Some of these Sectors Clients have decided that, for Health & Safety reasons, the CoC's being used must be robust and stand the test of time. This is one of the reasons why the MCA introduced the MCA STCW 95 Master (Code Vessel) <200gt. (I am aware that there is already a string on this subject as I made a contribution to it). I think we should also remember that the operators in the Small Craft Sector may well be paying up to £6 million for the craft that you may be driving. They want to ensure that you can not only drive the vessel but also have a whole range of knowledge ranging from the law (is the vessel manned correctly and does it have all the necessary vessel/equipment certificates; salvage; required record keeping; carrying of stores and equipment and many more issues) to H & S as it affects the operation of the vessel and other areas.

As someone who holds a valid STCW 95 Master (Unlimited) who had to take the RYA Yachtmaster Offshore and then Ocean in order to be 'recognised' in the 'small craft sector' I can sympathise, however, the fact is we must ensure that Skippers have all the Education and Training necessary in order that they can skipper a 'safe vessel'. Even though I had been sailing 'small craft' for over 40 years I still had to do the RYA examinations and when I did the Ocean the examiner told me he felt embarrassed as I had more Ocean mileage/days on board than he'd ever seen and a great deal more than he had achieved.

Out of interest I have never supported 'grandfather rights' as this means that people transfer without any test of their skills which, educationally, is always totally unacceptable. I am sure that we can all identify people who think they know everything necessary but we know that they don't!

As someone who has worked in the 'small craft sector' for many years I want to make sure that those who don't know what to do are found out before they are in command of a vessel with passengers and crew on board and have a serious accident.

To be honest I believe that what we're talking about here is spending money on our own training and certification so we can work and in my experience that's not unusual in any industry in the UK. I am aware that there are some employers who will pay for training however many of them require you to remain working for them for a period of time which may be as much as 2 years. If you leave before then you pay them back some or all of the costs of training.

biffer · 20 June 2013, 08:31

Spoken like a true RYA disciple

Skippy John · 20 June 2013, 09:33

Not really a 'true RYA disciple' in fact I've had many disagreements with the RYA over the years.

Check out this MAIB REport which has just been issued today which may help some people understand why things have to change

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...ixenReport.pdf

There are many others that have been issued in the past few years which also highlight the issues of Commercial Endorsement of RYA CoC's

biffer · 20 June 2013, 10:26

I hardly read them reports either, I know it sound bad and irresponsible but let me explain, if you dig into those reports and look for marine related incidents you'll find that most of them don't really relate to boat accidents, I will regale a tale of one report that turned up a number of marine related that turned out to be a drunk who fell off a pontoon and that was entered in two different sections, another in which a guy walked into a prop while the boat was on a trailer.
The first one got entered and read something like no life jacket, blah blah blah, entered again somewhere else reading something like ban drinking on boats, the fact that the guy was at a party in the marina and had nothing to do with boats got omitted
The prop accident got entered as marine accident and the boat was in a petrol station on a motorway.
You can't alter all the rules everytime someone has an accident

willk · 20 June 2013, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

Spoken like a true RYA disciple

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

I hardly read them reports either, I know it sound bad and irresponsible....

I think that you may have shed some light on why the PPR exam has to be done by all renewing skippers.

biffer · 20 June 2013, 15:10

You may be right, but no amount of waffling will make it right in my eyes, it wrong, there are more car accidents but they don't penalise the experienced,

9D280 · 20 June 2013, 16:37

So why isn't my car insurance £7.50? Never claimed in all the years I've been on an insurance policy at > average miles.

I used to be a dinghy instructor. It expired not long after I got a "real" job. Should I get an auto renewal "coz I still know how to sail a dinghy & can remember that first aid course"? What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?

Poly · 20 June 2013, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9D280

What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?

Who are you trying to kid - Hogger Neilson method when you learned surely?

biffer · 20 June 2013, 17:58

Vinny jones style. Bee gee staying alive staying alive

biffer · 20 June 2013, 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9D280

So why isn't my car insurance £7.50? Never claimed in all the years I've been on an insurance policy at > average miles.

I used to be a dinghy instructor. It expired not long after I got a "real" job. Should I get an auto renewal "coz I still know how to sail a dinghy & can remember that first aid course"? What was it again - 7 pumps & 2 breaths?

How did we jump from training to insurance

Poly · 20 June 2013, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

there are more car accidents but they don't penalise the experienced,

I don't know. You'll need a medical (yes another one!) at 70 to keep your towing entitlements. And I'm sure that PSV drivers (which is a closer analogy to commercial skippers) are made to jump through hoops on a recurring basis too.

The world IS out to get you Biffer, but if you let them wind you up - they've won!

biffer · 20 June 2013, 19:07

Only having some fun Poly, but I won't be swayed on this one, starting another thread now, has anyone had fuel stolen from there boat

Tim M · 20 June 2013, 20:09

Yes, they also took the engines

biffer · 20 June 2013, 20:18

Bugger, not really looked at anti theft for outboards, I know there are a lot of stuff out there but obviously doesn't work, I'll have to have a think

Tim M · 20 June 2013, 20:22

I can't think of any way of making them secure. If you make them too secure to the transom they'll just take a chunk of that with them as well!

Aquaplanning · 24 June 2013, 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim M

I can't think of any way of making them secure. If you make them too secure to the transom they'll just take a chunk of that with them as well!

That happens here (Netherlands) a lot so when I laminated my stern I glued in a couple of stainless steel bars.

A good way to lock an outboard is a chain round the tail. With my E-Tec that will take quite a bit of work to remove it, and it will be difficult not to cause damage.

CJL · 24 June 2013, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

You can fluff it up anyway you like Poly it still the same bullox, I got a reminder that my ticket was up for renewal and I now have to do another module that wasn't there last time, I can take it on line, as many times as I like as long as I pay the fee, now tell me that's not just a money maker, like my old dad used to say, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining

Biffer is right.

1) The RYA recently announced that you had to do a two day first aid course - except for their one day first aid course, which was still permitted.

2) Several years ago I qualified as a Regional Mark Layer. All fine and dandy but I was recently sent correspondence saying I needed to re-qualify and I had to list which race officials conference I'd been to. Needless to say I'd not been to any and they cost bucks to go to!

Sometimes I really feel like a valued volunteer/bank!

CJL

Doug Stormforce · 24 June 2013, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

Biffer is right. CJL

I'm afraid on this matter Biffer is actually wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

........as a commercial diver I had one medical, then as skipper another, and as race boat driver another, how many feckin medicinal s does it take, they should cross over, two of them are on the same bit of paper with different titles for Christ sake, have to do first aid for diving, even CPR in the water, doesn't cross over, it's not the 30 odd quid its the principle of it

Well actually he is right, there should be some cross over.... and there is. The HSE Divers Medical can be used as an alternative for your commercial endorsement as a skipper, there is no need to take a second medical (cant comment on the race one though).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

1) The RYA recently announced that you had to do a two day first aid course - except for their one day first aid course, which was still permitted.

Unfortunately your wrong on this. The RYA have never announced that you had to do a 2 day First Aid Course, they have in fact recently announced a large list off various First Aid Courses that they will accept as alternatives to their own, many of those courses are one day, they are also willing to consider others that are not yet on their ever growing list, subject to it matching some basic requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

2) Several years ago I qualified as a Regional Mark Layer. All fine and dandy but I was recently sent correspondence saying I needed to re-qualify and I had to list which race officials conference I'd been to. Needless to say I'd not been to any and they cost bucks to go to!

CJL

They have effectively said that if you can prove you are current (by having been to a conference) then you don't need to pay for an update course, seems quite reasonable to me.

Funnily enough Poly is actually right, the RYA get slammed for things like the commercial endorsement being too easy, then they find a cheap way of raising the game of COC holders and you slam them for improving things. A £37 course is hardly the end of the world.

Roger Towner of the MCA actually told me first hand that he and the MCA wanted to bring in a week long commercial endorsement theory course that you would have to take after your had passed your COC, it was the RYA that produced a £37 short online course as an alternative and persuaded the MCA that their original idea was OTT.

As far as grand father rights for the PPR goes, the whole reason we have the PPR is that there were so many COC holders who were unaware of their legal responsibilities, you only have to trawl through the last few years of this forum to see how many full time professional skippers of many years were unaware of even the basics and were in fact regularly and ignorantly working outside of the law. To grand father rights them all because they have been commercial skippers for a long time would have been madness.

Biff, you can call me a RYA disciple if you like, I happen to value what they do for us.

CJL · 25 June 2013, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

They have effectively said that if you can prove you are current (by having been to a conference) then you don't need to pay for an update course, seems quite reasonable to me.

But the conference costs time and money plus none of this was mentioned when I signed up to do it - that's my point!

Last time I looked there were no 1 day first aid courses on the list. Which ones have been added that are one day then?

Chris

Doug Stormforce · 25 June 2013, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

Last time I looked there were no 1 day first aid courses on the list. Which ones have been added that are one day then?

Chris

There are far too many to list here but of the top of my head the big two are

STCW'95 Elementary First Aid- this is the biggest selling first aid course in the marine sector world wide and has been on the list since the day the list was produced. It is a one day course and widely available.

HSE Emergency First Aid at Work is the biggest selling First Aid Course in Britian, although some centres are now badging it under Offqual or SQA, none the less all three names for what is essentially the same one day course are on the list.