Taking non-paying passengers on a private boat

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by 38Super

Found an MCA guidance leaflet.

"If your vessel does not meet the definition of ‘pleasure vessel’ then it will be
subject to commercial vessel regulation.
A pleasure vessel must only be used for the sport or pleasure of the owner and
their friends and family. In the case of a company-owned vessel it can only be
used for the sport or pleasure of the employees and officers and their friends and
family. The owner must not be paid for operating the vessel or carrying people.
Full definitions of the above terms can be found in ‘The Merchant Shipping
(Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998’
as amended."

https://assets.publishing.service.go...se_Leaflet.pdf

This implies if there is anyone on your boat who is not family or a friend you are operating commercially.

Define friend!

[38Super]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Define friend!

I think that's why most boaters don't need to worry about it. Most people you are likely to take on a boat will be friends. It's where the relationship is clearly not 'friend' that commercial starts.

You could pick up a random stranger from the 'Ferry steps' and offer them a lift up the river and they could immediately become a friend (pleasure) or you could pick up the same stranger who is expecting a service from you to deliver them up river and that would not be a friend (commercial).

That's my thoughts anyway.

[ShinyShoe]

Yes. So in WAFI world, friends appear to be able to be people you meet online (presumably there was some crew finder service before the interweb too).

But I think notably they would participate in sailing the boat. There may be other people who go on board who don't sail, but might do other jobs on board like galley.

[paulbrown22]

Personally as a Sea Cadet instructor I'd be very hesitant about taking cadets on my private boats. Indeed, technically I don't think I even could do so unless my boat has a formal loan/operating agreement with the Sea Cadets, appropriate insurance and is being used for an organised Sea Cadet activity subject to all other standards for organisation/safeguarding, etc. Just too many potential issues should something go wrong, and you don't want to be left holding the can as the subject of a MAIB report...

Would the boat (and cadets) be covered under your personal insurance policy, or an RN/CCF one? If you're planning on letting the cadets helm the boat, the current Sea Cadet operating rules would require you to be an RYA Powerboat Instructor (unless the cadets are already RYA Level 2 qualified).

Is it not easier just to try and book them on some courses with the big Sea Cadet training centre at Weymouth?

[38Super]

Originally Posted by paulbrown22

Is it not easier just to try and book them on some courses with the big Sea Cadet training centre at Weymouth?

You are right that would be much easier but I would like to give our Navy cadets the opportunity for some regular boating experience rather than just a one off course.

The RN Training Afloat Regulations specifically allow the use of private boats and detail the necessary measures including insurance. (Regs 319-323)
"320 - .....Private vessels must be equipped, surveyed and coded correctly for the activity taking place and area of operation."

Annex I - Offshore Craft
Refers to Certifying Authorities, surveyor completion of SCV2 Forms which is the full commercial coding and that's clear enough and appropriate.

However....

Annex H - POWERBOATS (sections 5, 6 & 7)

Section 5 -EXTERNAL SURVEY
"MoD or CF Powerboats are to be professionally surveyed at the end of each 5-year period........... The surveyor will issue a Full Condition Report inspection report or Document of Compliance (DoC) for the craft.

Section 6 - SURVEY AND INSPECTION OF PRIVATE VESSELS
"........ private vessels must have an in-date and valid DoC for the area in which it is to operate before any use by CF."

Section 7 then goes on to define what should be included in the "Full Condition Report which "may be in SCV2 format" but says nothing further about this Document of Compliance which is apparently issued by a surveyor and not a Certifying Authority.

This is the part I don't understand and was hoping someone had done it before.

We are an hours drive from any sea but have reasonable access to river and canal networks which could be workable. We'd also need BSS compliance but that's another story.

The RN regs are again clear about manning and I am looking to work my way up to PBI over the next few months to overcome at least that barrier.

The easiest option would be to get the Navy to give us a boat to play with then all we'd need to do is find someone to pay the bills

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by 38Super

I think that's why most boaters don't need to worry about it. Most people you are likely to take on a boat will be friends. It's where the relationship is clearly not 'friend' that commercial starts.

You could pick up a random stranger from the 'Ferry steps' and offer them a lift up the river and they could immediately become a friend (pleasure) or you could pick up the same stranger who is expecting a service from you to deliver them up river and that would not be a friend (commercial).

That's my thoughts anyway.

Safe to say someone tried this on the south coast and added loads of "friends " via FB etc. Twice MCA and local authority intervened and stated it was not a pleasure trip just be adding a friend who said yes please, Friend would be looked at over a period of time you knowing them in any subsequent court case

[lakelandterrier]

If the purpose is to give your CCF naval cadets some time on the water, then is this not something your host naval unit can provide? I know CCFs that had their "own" - Navy provided boats -or had availability to a regional pool of boats, or could you start a school sailing club / affiliate to a local club?

I think taking cadets out on your own boat for any training would not be acceptable to the organisation which will have a very clear duty of care to its cadets.

I think there will be issues about training qualification for you to teach unless you hold an RN recognised qualification and insurance / coding for your boat. If you are taking cadets on official activity, that would come under all the RAs and procedures of the CCF.

If as a private individual you want to take some "young friends" out on your own boat,-with parental consent that is somewhat different, but my present other problems.

[lakelandterrier]

If the purpose is to give your CCF naval cadets some time on the water, then is this not something your host naval unit can provide? I know CCFs that had their "own" - Navy provided boats -or had availability to a regional pool of boats, or could you start a school sailing club / affiliate to a local club?

I think taking cadets out on your own boat for any training would not be acceptable to the organisation which will have a very clear duty of care to its cadets.

I think there will be issues about training qualification for you to teach unless you hold an RN recognised qualification and insurance / coding for your boat. If you are taking cadets on official activity, that would come under all the RAs and procedures of the CCF.

If as a private individual you want to take some "young friends" out on your own boat,-with parental consent that is somewhat different, but my present other problems.

[mhill]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

If as a private individual you want to take some "young friends" out on your own boat,-with parental consent that is somewhat different, but my present other problems.

That’s a total no no!

[Poly]

Ignore the boat for a minute - I think the youth organisation will have other concerns. Those concerns are likely to apply even if you try to pull the "its not an official thing, these are my 'young friends' line" too.

You won't be the first leader to have had a bright idea to use their own boat. If I was sitting in an office somewhere wondering if that was a good idea my spidey senses would be tingling. Between the insurance, legal, risk assessment, and child protection issues I'd be wondering why a fairly well resourced youth organisation was considering it compared to using the available equipment, instructors, etc elsewhere.