Taking non-paying passengers on a private boat

[38Super]

I'd like to be able to take our CCF cadets out on my private RIB (when I've got it) just for some boating experience but from reading the MCA codes I understand an activity like this will need the full commercial coding process.

I would just be looking to stay strictly low speed, close inshore, Weymouth or Portland harbours, in good weather, in summer only with 2 or 3 cadets at a time in the boat so I could probably argue a reduced spec but the full process would still be far too expensive to be worthwhile.

The safety kit itself (barring a liferaft) isn't that different to what I would expect to carry anyway but the cost of getting it done appears to run into the many hundreds, maybe thousands of £'s.

Has anyone done anything similar? Or does anyone know if there's something I've missed in my reading?

TIA

[ShinyShoe]

Which words in the MCA code make you think it can't be done?

If the Cadets owned the boat, would that change things? Why?

A common situation that might appear commercial would be a large dinghy race, particularly in the junior fleets. They will typically have a 1:8 or 1:10 safety boat ratio. Some of these events can have 300+ entrants. Clearly most sailing clubs don't have 30+ RIBs. So they invite parents (or non-parents) to bring RIBs. They may (or may not) be paying a millage rate for towing the rib there and will be paying for fuel. Some people will be providing both crew on the boat, other people might have a random parent 'donated' to be the crew.

Right. So the law says if it's not a pleasure vessel it needs coded.

A pleasure vessel is:
(i)
(aa) in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or
(bb) in the case of a vessel owned by a body corporate, used only for sport or pleasure and on which the persons on board are employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends; and

I assume (aa) applies. It is your vessel. You are using it for your pleasure.

(ii) on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or

you haven't said if any money is changing hands. If it is, why? Is that the fuel bill being split equally? Or is that a bigger payment for other overheads

(b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or
1pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club; and

not sure I understand the grammar on this. Can you own it on behalf of the club? I suspect that doesn't apply
(c) in the case of any vessel referred to in paragraphs (a) or (b) above no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner.

again, is there ££ changing hands?


There was a guy who was sort of advertising for friends to come boating with him. He was basically saying if you want a ride on my boat you can pay my fuel costs (plus a bit for wear and tear etc) and I will become your friend and say it's not commercial. MCA told him to stop. After being told a few times he either stopped or did a better job at making new friends without them paying to be his friend ;-)

It is very common in yachting terms for people to advertise for crew. They make friends once they meet at the boat. There would be an agreement on how costs are divided. But basically you can't do more than split the costs of berthing, food, fuel etc. And the owner/skipper usually contributes their share to the pot too.

If say your biggest barriers are NOT the MCA but - YOUR insurer and the Cadets governance and insurance... If they are happy and no money is changing hands... It's not commercial.

[38Super]

The use of powerboats for racing purposes is fairly clearly excluded from the need for commercial coding so I'd be happy to accompany a race as a safety boat but that isn't my intended purpose.

Sadly the need comes from the RN regulations. The regulations refer (several times) to a requirement for an MCA Certificate of Compliance for privately owned boats before they can be used by cadets. However this is only in the section for 'offshore' use - category 0 to 6 waters.

For category A - D waters the Navy regulations refer to a requirement for a 'Document of Compliance'. I don't know if this is just a typo or if it's the name used for the Inshore Waters Code (COP13) or something else entirely.

When I read the Inshore Waters Code the requirements actually seemed to be stricter than the the rules in SGN 280.

Mainly I'm just looking to see if anyone else has done this already before I start trying to get clarification out of the Navy or a surveyor.

The only £££ changing hands would be direct expenses - launching/harbour fees and petrol for each trip but these would be paid direct not me.

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Which words in the MCA code make you think it can't be done?

If the Cadets owned the boat, would that change things? Why?

A common situation that might appear commercial would be a large dinghy race, particularly in the junior fleets. They will typically have a 1:8 or 1:10 safety boat ratio. Some of these events can have 300+ entrants. Clearly most sailing clubs don't have 30+ RIBs. So they invite parents (or non-parents) to bring RIBs. They may (or may not) be paying a millage rate for towing the rib there and will be paying for fuel. Some people will be providing both crew on the boat, other people might have a random parent 'donated' to be the crew.

Right. So the law says if it's not a pleasure vessel it needs coded.

A pleasure vessel is:
(i)
(aa) in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or
(bb) in the case of a vessel owned by a body corporate, used only for sport or pleasure and on which the persons on board are employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends; and

I assume (aa) applies. It is your vessel. You are using it for your pleasure.

(ii) on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or

you haven't said if any money is changing hands. If it is, why? Is that the fuel bill being split equally? Or is that a bigger payment for other overheads

(b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or
1pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club; and

not sure I understand the grammar on this. Can you own it on behalf of the club? I suspect that doesn't apply
(c) in the case of any vessel referred to in paragraphs (a) or (b) above no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner.

again, is there ££ changing hands?


There was a guy who was sort of advertising for friends to come boating with him. He was basically saying if you want a ride on my boat you can pay my fuel costs (plus a bit for wear and tear etc) and I will become your friend and say it's not commercial. MCA told him to stop. After being told a few times he either stopped or did a better job at making new friends without them paying to be his friend ;-)

It is very common in yachting terms for people to advertise for crew. They make friends once they meet at the boat. There would be an agreement on how costs are divided. But basically you can't do more than split the costs of berthing, food, fuel etc. And the owner/skipper usually contributes their share to the pot too.

If say your biggest barriers are NOT the MCA but - YOUR insurer and the Cadets governance and insurance... If they are happy and no money is changing hands... It's not commercial.

Be careful. My understanding is…if it’s not private leisure, it’s commercial

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Iankristy

Be careful. My understanding is…if it’s not private leisure, it’s commercial

If he gets pleasure from taking cadets out, it is clearly pleasure. The law says pleasure.

If there is money changing hands, a nasty lawyer will argue the pleasure is from the payment.

However, very justifiably the Cadets are saying they want to know the boat involved is safe.

I've not read the rules on coding recently enough. 0-6 is the MCA coding stuff. I thought A-D was Recreational Craft Directive...

I think this is what they are asking for:

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/regulations/pleasure-craft/ipv-code#:~:text=The%20IPV%20Code%20was%20introduced,t o%20certain%20conditions%20being%20met.

[C2 RIBS]

Easiest way to assess is look at the one definition which is pleasure vessel.- if your trip fall outside this then it is commercial

https://assets.publishing.service.go...re-vessels.pdf

The other way to cover this is under rules attached to IPV codes- intended for such areas you raise

https://assets.publishing.service.go...nuary_2019.pdf

Once you are happy you fit these criteria make sure your insurance covers said use.

Many recent accidents have seen companies, skippers and owners facing court in cold light of day for not following rules and they are getting tighter

[willk]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Many recent accidents have seen companies, skippers and owners facing court in cold light of day for not following rules and they are getting tighter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7NlFWh7Sz8

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If he gets pleasure from taking cadets out, it is clearly pleasure. The law says pleasure.



If there is money changing hands, a nasty lawyer will argue the pleasure is from the payment.



However, very justifiably the Cadets are saying they want to know the boat involved is safe.



I've not read the rules on coding recently enough. 0-6 is the MCA coding stuff. I thought A-D was Recreational Craft Directive...



I think this is what they are asking for:



https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/reg...%20being%20met.

If he gets pleasure from taking cadets out it’s pleasure? Not sure that’s how it’s defined. I get pleasure taking customers out. Is that pleasure too?

[38Super]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

However, very justifiably the Cadets are saying they want to know the boat involved is safe.

The boat still needs to comply with the RN regs safety standards which are nothing a competent skipper wouldn't have anyway. They're broadly similar to MCA but I don't know which MCA code.

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I've not read the rules on coding recently enough. 0-6 is the MCA coding stuff. I thought A-D was Recreational Craft Directive...

This one I know. Confusingly RCD categories are A (full offshore) to D (inland).
MCA categories are 0 (fully offshore) to 6 (coastal) and then they also have the 'Inland' categories from A (rivers and canals) to D (open estuary).
Broadly RCD 'D' = MCA A to C, RCD C = MCA D.


I'll have a look at that link. Thanks.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Iankristy

If he gets pleasure from taking cadets out it’s pleasure? Not sure that’s how it’s defined. I get pleasure taking customers out. Is that pleasure too?

A lawyer will say some of the pleasure comes from the £££ they give you. If there is no money they can't say that.

You'd take your friends and family out for a ride in a boat or car for pleasure.

But

A taxi driver might enjoy their job, but is usually making the specific journey because that's where the customer wanted to go. A ferry is making the journey because it is paid to make the journey.

"Pleasure vessels are generally considered those used for sport or recreational purposes only. The owner doesn’t gain financially from a pleasure vessel’s operation" Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulations-for-pleasure-craft

[C2 RIBS]

Think you all look to deep on favourable weather and design categories. If the use does not fit the definition under pleasure vessel I listed then use IPV codes as this was introduced for very similar circumstances, a temporary cover but get the boat insurance checked for use.
Pleasure vessel under MGN 489 dictates what is leisure use. After that it is commercial.

[38Super]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I think this is what they are asking for:

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge/reg...%20being%20met.

I had my hopes up there for a moment but the IPV Code in the link is only for single use delivery or repair type services or (again) racing safety boats. It is also only for vessels that go 'to sea'.

From MGN 280 - “To sea” means beyond category D waters, or category C waters if there are no category D waters".

Nice try though.

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

A lawyer will say some of the pleasure comes from the £££ they give you. If there is no money they can't say that.



You'd take your friends and family out for a ride in a boat or car for pleasure.



But



A taxi driver might enjoy their job, but is usually making the specific journey because that's where the customer wanted to go. A ferry is making the journey because it is paid to make the journey.



"Pleasure vessels are generally considered those used for sport or recreational purposes only. The owner doesn’t gain financially from a pleasure vessel’s operation" Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...pleasure-craft

‘Recreationally purposes only’. As in not training. I’m simply pointing out the weakness in the argument.

[38Super]

It's interesting that the IPV codes exist for vessels going 'to sea' but there does not appear to be an Inland equivalent for Categorised Waters (A-D).

Commercial Coding seems to work very differently in Categorised Waters than 'at sea'.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Iankristy

‘Recreationally purposes only’. As in not training. I’m simply pointing out the weakness in the argument.

I can own a 50ft yacht and take my brother out to sail on it and (attempt) to teach him to sail it. Provided my brother does nothing more than cover genuine expenses that's not commercial. This would not be an uncommon concept in the WAFI world.

Likewise I could be planning a passage and decide some crew would be helpful. MCA seem quite comfortable that I can post up that I'm going and some crew joins me and shares the costs of berth, fuel and food.

Now if I say "come build your hours for YM on my yacht - cost £300/night" that's commercial, Kitty contributions are often around £30/d on a yacht and often any spare kitty money is divided back to sailors on leaving the boat

Likewise if I say to Sea Cadets - you can send 3 cadets to me next week and I can teach them to sail and will only ask you to fill my engine (which happens to have a 300litre tank, is empty and I will use 30L) and pay all my summer marina fees... I stand to gain commercially so that's not just leisure.

The term passenger upsets the MCA. Passengers pay. Passengers have no active participation in the voyage. Students/ trainees may be commercial. Crew on the other hand unless being paid an hourly rate, are not commercial...

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

I can own a 50ft yacht and take my brother out to sail on it and (attempt) to teach him to sail it. Provided my brother does nothing more than cover genuine expenses that's not commercial. This would not be an uncommon concept in the WAFI world.



Likewise I could be planning a passage and decide some crew would be helpful. MCA seem quite comfortable that I can post up that I'm going and some crew joins me and shares the costs of berth, fuel and food.



Now if I say "come build your hours for YM on my yacht - cost £300/night" that's commercial, Kitty contributions are often around £30/d on a yacht and often any spare kitty money is divided back to sailors on leaving the boat



Likewise if I say to Sea Cadets - you can send 3 cadets to me next week and I can teach them to sail and will only ask you to fill my engine (which happens to have a 300litre tank, is empty and I will use 30L) and pay all my summer marina fees... I stand to gain commercially so that's not just leisure.



The term passenger upsets the MCA. Passengers pay. Passengers have no active participation in the voyage. Students/ trainees may be commercial. Crew on the other hand unless being paid an hourly rate, are not commercial...

I don’t make or agree with the regulations. I’m just pointing out to the OP sometimes things which seem perfectly reasonable and have been acceptable for years are not necessarily within the rules and it’ll probably be fine if nothing happens. Mebbe not if something does. If he’s a member of the RYA can probably call up and get some advice. [ATTACH]142824

[Pikey Dave]

I would have thought that irrespective of whether the “passengers” are fare paying or not, which I think is a red herring in this case. The Sea Cadets will have a duty of care to the kids in their charge. Presumably, that duty of care extends to ensuring that any boat that is used by the Cadets, whilst they are on Cadet duties, is fit for purpose. One way of ensuring that the boat is suitable is to ask for XYZ certification. It’ll be all part of the risk assessment.
If the OP’s offspring then asks if he/she can bring one of his/her Cadet mates out on a “private” jolly, separate from the Cadet jolly, then that’s a different kettle of lobsters.
If my child was in the Cadets & was been taken out to sea on a private boat, I would reasonably expect that the Cadet leadership had done due diligence to ensure that my child was as safe as practicable. Simples!

[mhill]

No experience with CCF rules but MSSC state all outboard driven boats must have a prop guard and many other rules too, some of which I recall being rather bizarre. I do recall that all BA’s or LJ’s have to be MOD issued though.

Check with your unit / HQ before you go any further but you are outside the scope of MCA workboat code of it’s for pleasure.

[38Super]

Found an MCA guidance leaflet.

"If your vessel does not meet the definition of ‘pleasure vessel’ then it will be
subject to commercial vessel regulation.
A pleasure vessel must only be used for the sport or pleasure of the owner and
their friends and family. In the case of a company-owned vessel it can only be
used for the sport or pleasure of the employees and officers and their friends and
family. The owner must not be paid for operating the vessel or carrying people.
Full definitions of the above terms can be found in ‘The Merchant Shipping
(Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998’
as amended."

https://assets.publishing.service.go...se_Leaflet.pdf

This implies if there is anyone on your boat who is not family or a friend you are operating commercially.

[38Super]

Originally Posted by mhill

No experience with CCF rules but MSSC state all outboard driven boats must have a prop guard and many other rules too, some of which I recall being rather bizarre. I do recall that all BA’s or LJ’s have to be MOD issued though.

Check with your unit / HQ before you go any further but you are outside the scope of MCA workboat code of it’s for pleasure.

The RN regulations are actually pretty clear and comprehensive - propguards on outboards of 20hp or more - ribs must have seating for speeds above 15knots - WSE can be MOD or private. The regs are pretty similar to the the Small vessels code without the expensive paperwork. Nothing too onerous IMO.

I'm happy that cadet use is commercial but MGN280 and the Red code are only applicable to vessels that go 'to sea' (Category 6 and beyond). Inland there is only appears to be the COP13 guidance to be interpreted by every harbour or local authority in their own way.

I remember reading somewhere that the Sea Cadets have a special exemption which makes things easier for them. I'll try to find the reference.

I think I now need to take this up with unit HQ and the MCA. That'll keep me busy.