15hp Johnson Tiller/Elec Wiring question

[Sinistre1]

Nos4R2, I am hoping it is what you say and it just wound up in the engine. It would be strange but I AM hoping. I AM really concerned that it IS not, though. Tried searching the net for information on circlips in the Johnson 15 series. Couldn't find any.

LocoZodiac, Please explain what you mean. Don't think you've actually said what you think it might be (unless I just didn't understand your post.) If you DO think you have an idea what it might be I would REALLY like to hear it. Maybe just a little bit less coded .

In any case, as always, I am thankful to all who have offered their help. I think I have figured out the starter problem. It appears the starter button was removed (more likely not provided by factory) and the two wires appear to be spliced together (always on). Gonna try to remove the tiller cover (where the wires terminate) and either add a switch or run a cable for a remote starter.

[Locozodiac]

[Quote)
LocoZodiac, Please explain what you mean. Don't think you've actually said what you think it might be (unless I just didn't understand your post.) If you DO think you have an idea what it might be I would REALLY like to hear it. Maybe just a little bit less coded .

Hello again...

If you engine is a dual electric & manual rope start, this is the problem:

Remove the rope starter ( 3 screws) and turn it up side down, follow the Handle Starter, this item has a Guide Rope which is secured to the housing starter by means of the mysterious e ring. One of 2, you will find the other missing half part of what’s left soldered to the guide rope and the other half you already found it, if not visible in the guide rope, turn up side down your engine to see if it falls to the floor. One thing you can do is cracy glue the guide rope to the housing starter and forget all about replacing with a new e ring, this is a bad quality piece that can ruin the whole engine, will explain…

Used to have a 1996 Evi 15 HP 2 stroke engine, one day while cruising at wot in very calm waters the engine suddenly stopped with a big bang noise, we were thrown out of a 330 sib into the water, back on tried to start it again with no success , once in Lima the cylinder head was removed from the engine and water starting to come out, on the upper piston head noticed a huge deep line. The crankshaft and pistons were disarmed founding a complete crack in the upper cylinder reaching the water passage.

What happened : The famous e ring broke, one part remained secured to the guide rope the other half was literally swallowed by the carb at wot, made it’s way through the air silencer, leaf plate, gasoline intake and when it was about to be thrown out through the exhaust system the upper piston smashed it against the exhaust port (louvre) & piston rings stopping inmediately the engine. Had to replace a complete new cylinder, machine shop the other cylinder and replace with 2 new 0.25 pistons. A friend of mine did a wonderful job with the complete crankcase assembly, is still working fine now a days with it’s new satisfied owner.

Bottom line, if you own a 2 stroke 9.9 & 15 HP Evi/John engine, remove this nasty little e’ring and glue the guide rope to the assembly, you engine and you will appreciate a very far boater warned you about this avoidable serious problem. See the piston pic remains. Other e ring the same type can be found securing the starter pawl to the starter housing. See parts pic. Hope this info helps you & Other 9.9 /15 HP owners

Happy Boating

[Sinistre1]

I was gettin ready to type that I t hink I found the problem. LocoZodiac you are, I believe, right on the money. I spent a couple of hours playing detective and found that the piece that I have fits perfectly in the pull start rope housing guide thing. It looks like it is supposed to prevent the rope from pulling out or rubbing against the sides. Problem is I have no idea where the other piece is. I'm happy i found the one I have. I would REALLY hate to have the same experience you related. Would probably be the end of my boating for a good long while, with less than a quarter season under my belt. Thank you very, very much. Have to hunt down that piece (or at least until I am somewhat confident it isn't still in the engine.

[Sinistre1]

Any ideas how to find the missing piece. I think it is a no-no to turn the engine upside down and shake out the offending piece. If it falls to the bottom end can it do any damage. Am I better off just looking around the top of the engine.

[Locozodiac]

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Any ideas how to find the missing piece. I think it is a no-no to turn the engine upside down and shake out the offending piece. If it falls to the bottom end can it do any damage. Am I better off just looking around the top of the engine.

Hola Sinistre 1

Nothing will happen if you turn upside down the engine and shake for a couple of seconds to see if the other half is hidden somewhere inside, using a compressor you could air blast the whole engine. If the cost is not high in hand labor and gasket, or if you can perform this service by yourself remove the intake manifold from the crankcase and look inside, maybe the missing half e'ring has entered the engine and is around the reed valves manifold chamber. If the missing piece passes the reeds valves while working you know what can possible happen... Will need to torque the manifold again.

About the battery issue, your engine must have a starter button located at the left of the shift lever, it's a 2 wire that includes a charger system. Will need to use a marine battery rated 12 Volts- 360 CCA-50 Amp/Hour. Other thing, when installing battery first connect the positive terminal, then the negative. When disconnecting, first the negative, then the positive. If you mix the polarity even briefly will ruin the engine charging system. Apply marine grease to both terminals.

Good luck finding the offending missing e'ring piece

Happy Boating

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Locozodiac

Nothing will happen if you turn upside down the engine and shake for a couple of seconds

Just before you do, it is a 2-stroke and not going to make a very nasty oily mess when you do this? Most 4-strokes are quie particular about the angle you leave them at...... If it is a 4, probably need to drain the sump first....... Or hows about try the bit you have with a magnet - then you might be able to just go fishing?

Did you suss out the throttle? I see the 15 shares it's block with the 9.9. Is the throttle stopped at the shaft or is it just a very loose cable to the tiller? IF it's stopped at the shaft let me know, as I have a similar story about an old 2- stroke Suzuki.......

[Locozodiac]

You can remove the carburator and look inside, as 9D280 says fish with a magnet or tilt the engine down with the removed carb pointing to the fllor to see if the missing piece falls off. I will make sure the missing piece is not inside the manifold chamber before looking some where else.. Happy hunting

Happy Boating

[Sinistre1]

Originally Posted by 9D280

Did you suss out the throttle? I see the 15 shares it's block with the 9.9. Is the throttle stopped at the shaft or is it just a very loose cable to the tiller? IF it's stopped at the shaft let me know, as I have a similar story about an old 2- stroke Suzuki.......

Not quite sure what this refers to. It's a twist grip throttle with the wire inside a sheath/ guide. twisting the throttle pulls the cable which pulls on some rods and levers.

[Sinistre1]

Originally Posted by Locozodiac

Hola Sinistre 1

About the battery issue, your engine must have a starter button located at the left of the shift lever, it's a 2 wire that includes a charger system. Will need to use a marine battery rated 12 Volts- 360 CCA-50 Amp/Hour. Other thing, when installing battery first connect the positive terminal, then the negative. When disconnecting, first the negative, then the positive. If you mix the polarity even briefly will ruin the engine charging system. Apply marine grease to both terminals.

Happy Boating

Does the battery have to have that amount of amperage available for charging purposes. I already bought a battery (20 amps) and this was dictated by size (I didn't want a large battery). I figured a motorcycle size battery would be fine. I'm not worried about running out of juice but if it is going to negatively affect the charging system. As a side there was no battery attached at all the last three times I used it. Would that have affected the charging system.

Lastly, there is not a starter switch on the left of the lever. There WAS something called a neutral safety switch. It is missing. Looking for a replacement. From what I have been able to gather on the net it is a safety lock out not an actual starter button. I've yet to find an actual starter button. Am I mistaken and this is an actual start button and safety feature.

[Locozodiac]

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Does the battery have to have that amount of amperage available for charging purposes. I already bought a battery (20 amps) and this was dictated by size (I didn't want a large battery). I figured a motorcycle size battery would be fine. I'm not worried about running out of juice but if it is going to negatively affect the charging system. As a side there was no battery attached at all the last three times I used it. Would that have affected the charging system.

Lastly, there is not a starter switch on the left of the lever. There WAS something called a neutral safety switch. It is missing. Looking for a replacement. From what I have been able to gather on the net it is a safety lock out not an actual starter button. I've yet to find an actual starter button. Am I mistaken and this is an actual start button and safety feature.

You can use any battery as long it's rated 12 Volts, the only difference is that the recommended one (50 Amp/Hr) has a 90 minutes reserve capacity, more than the motorcycle bat. The alternator used is a 5 Amp Noneregulated.

Electric start engines are more for console type sibs, ribs, if you drive seted on the pontoon just pull the rope, if your engine is in good shape will start with the first pull, Personally don`t like things bumping inside my sib, and a batery must be well secured to not bump inside.

On the steering handle you have a quick disconnect lanyarn clip, it's not the starter buttom. In some electric/rope start models the factory recommends to disconect the rectifier if used without a battery to protect the charging system. Have no info about your current model. Maybe you should contact BRP tech department and make a tech inquiry, you can reach them through the net :

Order Questions
Call 805-547-8368 or email support@shopatron.com

Happy Boating

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Does the battery have to have that amount of amperage available for charging purposes. I already bought a battery (20 amps) and this was dictated by size (I didn't want a large battery)....

I have a 20HP Yamaha - which is connected fine to one of those "jump start" packs you get with a 21 Ah battery [it was cheaper than a battery and included a master switch, switched 12 V socket with fuse] - that I have wired in "permanently". Its survived 2 years of neglect and never has any problems starting even when left for a few months so I am sure you will be fine without. You know you can use the cord if the battery does die.

[Sinistre1]

Searched around no luck with the missing piece. Turned the motor upside down and shook it. Even tapped it against my boot (footwear/ not automotive) a few times nothing. Not very confident about taking off the carb and manifold. They seem to be sealed (although I guess air has to get into the carb somehow) pretty well. Have my wiring all sorted out. Even got to dry test the starter (spark plug wires removed). Gonna be cruising in style in 6 weeks and counting. Thanks again for all the help. Couldn't have/ wouldn't have without the help and encouragement. Now i'm off to wiring up a mini (more like micro) console for my fishfinder, bilge pump/ livewell and "running lights" (can't really see myself out at night but what the heck, never know).

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Not quite sure what this refers to. It's a twist grip throttle with the wire inside a sheath/ guide. twisting the throttle pulls the cable which pulls on some rods and levers.

OK, will try to explain this a little better......

Outboards have a habbit of using one physical lump of engine being rated at two or three horsepowers, simply for manufacturing efficiency. The way they "de rate" the smaller ones is usually to put either a restrictor plate between the carbs and the engine or mechanically stop the throttle plate before it goes wide open. Basically restricts the air into the engine so limits the horsepower, so they then stick a decal with a smaller number on the lid.

So, you said your throttle plate doesn't go all the way open. I was wondering if this was due to a loose cable or slop in part of the linkage, or whether the mechanical "open stop" on the side of the carb / throttle plae shaft was what was stopping it.

Loose cable / mechanism just needs tigtened up to get WOT. A mechanical stop on the throttle shaft will mean you actually have a smaller (I guess 9.9Hp if the currnet Johnson website is anything to go by) engine with the lid (and decals) off a 15..... unless your vintage of engine also shares its block with something bigger, in which case just leave it well alone unless your transom can take the extra HP!

Hopefully that's a bit clearer.

[Locozodiac]

[QUOTE 9D280] OK, will try to explain this a little better......

Outboards have a habbit of using one physical lump of engine being rated at two or three horsepowers, simply for manufacturing efficiency. The way they "de rate" the smaller ones is usually to put either a restrictor plate between the carbs and the engine or mechanically stop the throttle plate before it goes wide open. Basically restricts the air into the engine so limits the horsepower, so they then stick a decal with a smaller number on the lid.

So, you said your throttle plate doesn't go all the way open. I was wondering if this was due to a loose cable or slop in part of the linkage, or whether the mechanical "open stop" on the side of the carb / throttle plae shaft was what was stopping it.

Loose cable / mechanism just needs tigtened up to get WOT. A mechanical stop on the throttle shaft will mean you actually have a smaller (I guess 9.9Hp if the currnet Johnson website is anything to go by) engine with the lid (and decals) off a 15..... unless your vintage of engine also shares its block with something bigger, in which case just leave it well alone unless your transom can take the extra HP!

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Answers:

Turn tiller to WOT, adjust the full throttle stopper screw to a specific measurement in mm so to match the tiller painted speeds, done so, adjust the cam follower throttle at the left end by means of a screw (right/left) until you see the butterfly air lever at 180º (horizontal) that will be your full throttle final adjustment.

Although 9.9 & 15 Hp Evis 2 stroke share the same size pistons, each one has it's own crankcase with minor differences sharing most of the other parts, this model has no air restrictor found on other brand engines, to modify a 9.9 to become 15 HP you have to change the reed valves and the whole carburator, each model has it's specific carb. Years ago, lost endless days trying to convert a 9.9 to 15 HP.

Tested changing differenr size high speed gasoline orifices, with not success at all. After trowing the towell and nearly the engine, contacted the OMC Technical Manager, who is a friend of mine, told me to change the complete carb, the 15 HP has wider inside gasoline passages that of the 9.9 model. Anyway the cost of changing Reed Valves and carb is a total of $ 300 + hand labor. Many dealers won't do the convertion, it's against OMC rules, it's a matter of security.

So next time you buy a portable EVI 2 strokes if available go for the 15 HP, the dealer difference price between a 9.9 & 15 HP will be lesser than making a convertion afterwords.

Happy Boating

[Sinistre1]

9D280,

It is mechanical "slop". I have to adjust a screw to push the carb open just a wee bit more. It adjusts with a hex key/ allen wrench. This one is an easy fix

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Locozodiac

Although 9.9 & 15 Hp Evis 2 stroke share the same size pistons, each one has it's own crankcase with minor differences sharing most of the other parts, this model has no air restrictor found on other brand engines, to modify a 9.9 to become 15 HP you have to change the reed valves and the whole carburator, each model has it's specific carb. Years ago, lost endless days trying to convert a 9.9 to 15 HP.

Is it any wonder they're going out of business??? My old Suz (and I checked the parts lists) Literally had the carb & The CDI as the only differences. CDI is not "plug'n'play" programmable on ye olde engines, so for two downloads in the factory that's a cheap downrate, and the carb had literally the throttle stop plate on the end of the shaft different between the two (according to the parts lists the main jets were identical). Granted the stop was brazed onto the end of the shaft, so you would need a whole new carb, but that's manufacturing efficiency for you! Two engines and one different part (well, OK, two if you count the assumed firmware change in the CDI)

Originally Posted by Locozodiac

it's against OMC rules, it's a matter of security.

Agreed - and similar for all manufacturers - I didn't say it was right or legal! (and the insurers might have something to say about it too......)

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

9D280,

It is mechanical "slop". I have to adjust a screw to push the carb open just a wee bit more. It adjusts with a hex key/ allen wrench. This one is an easy fix

Sounds like it's just gone slack with use. There will be another screw (I guess) to adjust the closed stop position. If it's similar to any other throttle I've used you need to get it as closed as possible, but not such that the flap jams in the hole. Probably find an 1/8 of a turn in the closed direction is enough to stick it, so do a few open / close tests before you go out!

[Sinistre1]

Will do. Not going to motor out too far before I check and re-check my handi-work. Although I have oars, i'd hate to have to use them to travel any appreciable distance (say over 100 yards!). I still have a month and a couple of weeks before she is back in the water this season. The globe may or may not be warming (personal opinion aside) but the weather around here is turning over begrudgingly slowly.

[Sinistre1]

One last thanks. I found the missing piece. It managed to wedge itself in the support foam of the engine hood/ cowl. I had put that aside while I worked on the electrical. When I turned it over to remove the decals (freshening up the paint and "re-decaling") the piece dropped out. Fitted them together and that is all there is! Sweet. I'll be able to cruise in peace (of mind). Have my starter switch in place. There WAS a pushbutton on the side of the shift lever but mine was broken off and the little switch was stuck. Got it released and a new starter switch assembly installed. I am SOOOOO ready for this fishing season. Gonna have the cleanest SIB in the bay.

[nickd]

Does this issue happen with the manual start only ones too? If it does then I think I'll be dismantling my new one (secondhand) when it gets delivered and gluing the pull cord as suggested.
thanks, Nick