2 stroke law requirements

dredge3 · 18 July 2018, 19:10

I emailed a guy selling 2 strokes on ebay. I asked him what proof he needed to buy one.

He just replied that you need to be a fisherman with license, Sole trader etc with legitimate use and club/scout group
This law isnt very clear as to what use.
So if I run a group of lads, like the scouts, do i qualify? What do you need, a letter head?
Do they as a dealer/seller need to give proof?

I wish I still took my lad to the scouts. I would buy one threw them

Fenlander · 18 July 2018, 19:19

As I've mentioned a couple of times recently when I was phoning around for a new OB recently two Tohatsu dealers offered the info... why don't you consider a 2-stroke, we just need you to sign a declaration that it's for your business... knowing full well I didn't have a business that needed an outboard.

So it's a loophole fiddle and up to you if you want to go for it. The downside may be that if you had to claim for a stolen OB of dubious provenance the ins co may be asking how you were able to legally own it??? I don't know just a thought.

Anyway if you can afford a new hooky 2-stroke then a legit 4-stroke is in the same ball park.

beamishken · 18 July 2018, 20:27

A pal of mine enquired with BHG about a new 2 stroke and they wanted his fishing licence details
Maybe other dealers have different interpretations of the rules.
But to be honest up to 25-30hp I'd rather have an old school 2 stroke anyday
The modern 4 strokes wont have the longevity of the previous two strokes.
15-20 years would be my guesstimate for lifespan of the current crop whilst many old two strokes are still going strong at 30 and 40 years old

dredge3 · 18 July 2018, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by beamishken

A pal of mine enquired with BHG about a new 2 stroke and they wanted his fishing licence details
Maybe other dealers have different interpretations of the rules.
But to be honest up to 25-30hp I'd rather have an old school 2 stroke anyday
The modern 4 strokes wont have the longevity of the previous two strokes.
15-20 years would be my guesstimate for lifespan of the current crop whilst many old two strokes are still going strong at 30 and 40 years old

I wont live as long as any of them.
Its not that what attracts me. Its the weight loss
Yamaha 15hp 2 stroke 38kg
Yamaha 15hp 4 stroke 51kg.
Thats a lot of weight loss

beamishken · 18 July 2018, 22:48

Yep its a no brainer if you want portability realy. If you can get hold of one I'd go for it

Poly · 18 July 2018, 23:04

The tohatsu 4st is only 43kg, Suzuki 44kg,

Fenlander · 18 July 2018, 23:10

To be fair though dredge you are quoting a 15hp 4-stroke that is overweight by current standards... the go-to brands have the 15hp's down to 43/44kg as Poly says and you can have the 20hp version for the same weight... yes still more but much nearer.

And re longevity I would bet that given servicing by the book both bought today a new 4-stroke would last at least as long as a new 2-stroke.

But given typical ownership profiles as they age the 4-strokes will suffer from missed oil/filter changes, using cheap oils, forgotten valve clearance checks and missed timing belt changes etc.... owner induced failure.

Fenlander · 18 July 2018, 23:25

BTW I have no particular axe to grind re 2-stroke vs 4-stroke but if you are making a choice base it on all the facts. It may not matter to dredge but for me the 4-strokes rock steady behaviour and low noise at trolling speeds is a real benefit... as is the ability to put left over fuel in a petrol car so you can use fresh fuel every time in the OB to cut down on ethanol issues.

simonl · 19 July 2018, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenlander

And re longevity I would bet that given servicing by the book both bought today a new 4-stroke would last at least as long as a new 2-stroke.

But given typical ownership profiles as they age the 4-strokes will suffer from missed oil/filter changes, using cheap oils, forgotten valve clearance checks and missed timing belt changes etc.... owner induced failure.

I expect the 2 strokes are typically old robust designs, whereas the more modern 4 stroke designs probably have built in obsolescence, unless they just rely on the salt...

Mickhitchuk · 19 July 2018, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenlander

BTW I have no particular axe to grind re 2-stroke vs 4-stroke but if you are making a choice base it on all the facts. It may not matter to dredge but for me the 4-strokes rock steady behaviour and low noise at trolling speeds is a real benefit... as is the ability to put left over fuel in a petrol car so you can use fresh fuel every time in the OB to cut down on ethanol issues.

I have a hookey 2st and have to say if I could make the choice again I would have gone for a 4,no marine shops near me so if I run out of 2 stroke oil I’m screwed, and as said always having a fuel tank with 2 stroke mix I can’t use for anything else

paulbrown22 · 19 July 2018, 21:13

2 stroke oil isn't marine specific, unless you specifically want a Quicksilver (or other) branded one? My last bottle just came from the local Texaco garage, more aimed at motorbikes/cars/lawn mowers, but is the same old stuff as they sell for boats as far as I'm aware. Plenty of other places will sell you "normal", non-marine branded 2 stroke oil - most petrol stations, Halfords, Screwfix, B&Q, garden centres and more.

I'm the same as some of the others above - all my <=30hp outboards are 2 strokes, and I wouldn't change any of them at the moment. For my usage/abuse, ease of handling, and just not worrying about them too much, they are just so robust and reliable. I've actually just bought another (admittedly quite old) 9.9 2 stroke while I take apart and fix the gearbox on my equally old 5hp that runs our little aluminium dinghy around the harbour.

Fenlander · 19 July 2018, 21:53

General 2-stroke oil isn't marine specific but regardless of motor brand 2-stroke oil for outboards is marine outboard specific. So no the mower stuff isn't the same as that for marine use. It may work for you and that's fine but if you want to be assured of the ultimate protection (particularly if buying a hookey new 2-stroke and wanting it to last) stick to the marine TC-W3 etc specs.

Sibs are so cheap to run and with 50 or 100:1 ratios no need to save a few quid on the oil.

Max... · 19 July 2018, 22:03

It's hardly difficult to buy - like anything these days, order it on eBay or Amazon and it will be at your front door the next day. I just buy (the proper marine stuff) in bulk and decant into lots of small used lemonade bottles, each one measured out for 10 or 20 litres at 75:1 and ready to add. You wouldn't run out of petrol so no need to run out of oil.

paulbrown22 · 19 July 2018, 22:49

Thanks Fenlander, happy to stand corrected - I should clearly stick to diesels!

I can see for the big injected engines, modern Etecs, etc., having the proper marine grade oil is probably essential, but didn't realise the difference/benefit for older-school pre-mix 2 strokes, especially at the very small end of the scale (e.g. 2-5hp). I'll check the specs more carefully next time, although not sure my ancient little 2 strokes will notice much improvement!

beamishken · 19 July 2018, 23:04

I always buy marine oil but have been caught out before and used normal 2 stroke oil with no ill effects.
The small downside of having pre mixed fuel is far outweighed by the lack of servicing you dont need to do. Many people are likely to drain more oil out of their 4 stroke sump than they will use in a year.
I tend to use most of my fuel at the end of the season the rest goes in a chainsaw or lawnmower even 4 strokes run happily on 2 stroke mix.
Outboards have started to go the way of cars, its not the rot and corrosion that kills modern cars its the cost of replacing the expensive tech that puts most in the scrapyard.
Its only going to get worse as engines progress to more complex fuel injection systems which wont tolerate the inevitable water ingress into fuel and condensation when laid up

Poly · 20 July 2018, 01:12

I think the point has been made but probably worth clarifying:

Two strokes which are water cooled (most reasonably modern 2 strokes over 3hp) will run on TCW3 grade oil which is designed for the temps those engines operate at.

Most 2stroke scooters, chainsaw, lawnmowers etc. are intended to run on an oil at higher temp and API-TC or similar grades. TVW3 oil is not usually ideal for garden tool apparatus and vice versa.

In desparate circumstances it may be fine to use the wrong two stroke oil, but generally you run the risk of: 1. Increased plug fouling at low rpm. 2. Reduced engine protection at high rpm but moderate temps.

dredge3 · 20 July 2018, 07:53

I was a Kawasaki motorcycle mechanic but have no knowledge about outboards.
As far as I read. Outboards run colder than motorcycles due to the sea? They make the 2 stroke oil a tad thinner for outboards???
The only danger of using motorcycle 2 stoke oil is plug fouling (as long as its premixed and not pump fed) If they are pump fed. ignore the following...

Halfords/petrol station oils are usually poor quality. Sometimes not. Many motorcycle forums have had decades of arguments about oils. I guess it will be the same here.
Its the spec thats the important part.Synthetic? heat point etc.

The same with 4 stoke engine oil. Is all 10w 40 oils the same. I have put Home Bargains part synthetic oils in cars. Its really good oil. Halfords oil is junk yet a fortune.
As long as its getting oil. Thats the important part.
If i was pre mixing 2 stroke oil. I wouldnt worry at all

Poly · 20 July 2018, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dredge3

I was a Kawasaki motorcycle mechanic but have no knowledge about outboards.
As far as I read. Outboards run colder than motorcycles due to the sea? They make the 2 stroke oil a tad thinner for outboards???
The only danger of using motorcycle 2 stoke oil is plug fouling (as long as its premixed and not pump fed) If they are pump fed. ignore the following...

Halfords/petrol station oils are usually poor quality. Sometimes not. Many motorcycle forums have had decades of arguments about oils. I guess it will be the same here.
Its the spec thats the important part.Synthetic? heat point etc.

The same with 4 stoke engine oil. Is all 10w 40 oils the same. I have put Home Bargains part synthetic oils in cars. Its really good oil. Halfords oil is junk yet a fortune.
As long as its getting oil. Thats the important part.
If i was pre mixing 2 stroke oil. I wouldnt worry at all

I'm not sure why your are confusing the issue by (1) referring to 4 stroke oils; (2) suggesting that this is a discussion about brands. The important point is that oil sold for air cooled garden tools etc are not usually rated to TCW3 therefore are not the right spec for water cooled outboards. Like putting the wrong grade of oil in your car sump, you may well not notice a problem in the short term. Its really not that hard, or more expensive to get a generic TCW3 oil, so no obvious reason to run the wrong stuff all the time.

Fenlander · 20 July 2018, 14:27

>>>Many motorcycle forums have had decades of arguments about oils.

Indeed and none of us have the lab test facilities to prove claims one way or another... it's all personal opinion.

But for the smaller sibbing 2-strokes it's really simple. The outboard makers all advise a marine spec oil which is suited to the running profile of outboard motors... raw water cooling, average rev range and ingesting salt laden air etc.

So the correct and probably best stuff is there if you want to used it.

dredge3 · 20 July 2018, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenlander

>>>Many motorcycle forums have had decades of arguments about oils.

Indeed and none of us have the lab test facilities to prove claims one way or another... it's all personal opinion.

But for the smaller sibbing 2-strokes it's really simple. The outboard makers all advise a marine spec oil which is suited to the running profile of outboard motors... raw water cooling, average rev range and ingesting salt laden air etc.

So the correct and probably best stuff is there if you want to used it.

These outboards go through such harsh water, yet some carry a longer warranty. Honda 6 years. Honda motorcycles 1 year