2009 evinrude etec 40hp tt - Page 3

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 06:08

1 thing I've not done is compression test. But as I said when old coils used on different cylinders the problem moved cylinder. I mean different spark plug fouling. Again in my head that don't seem like a compression failure.

TmMorris · 10 May 2022, 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scomich

1 thing I've not done is compression test. But as I said when old coils used on different cylinders the problem moved cylinder. I mean different spark plug fouling. Again in my head that don't seem like a compression failure.

Agree. The fact that you could migrate the plug fouling from one cylinder to another by swapping the coils seems pretty clear that you had a weak spark from a degrading coil.

But you've fixed that issue now by replacing the coils and plugs but the other symptoms still remain.

That suggests that you've been dealing with more than one problem and at least one remains.

I agree re comp test but it helps rule out 'air' now you've ruled out 'spark' and that would leave 'fuel'. It's also going to give some useful info if you're about to make a call on junking the engine as a poor compression on a cylinder may help swing that call?

But assuming spark is now good and air is good then it would take us back to fuel. You e checked everything up to the injectors so seeing those mushrooming would help alleviate any thought that they are the issue.

Arguably that then leaves you with computer looking more plausible.

Pikey Dave · 10 May 2022, 07:32

Just as a side note, don’t swap the injectors from one cylinder to the other. The injectors have to be programmed to each cylinder with their respective co-efficients. The wrong injector in the wrong cylinder can cause terminal engine damage.

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 07:46

Hi Pikey,

Yeah I had read that, cheers. I just can't clear it In my head why when I swapped the coils around the plug that was being fouled changed cylinders. Obviously as TM says I'm dealing with more than 1 problem here. No expert far from it. But my simple mind says that don't make any sense. Unless the emm is playing games with me. Again as TM says 2 brains are often better than 1 but at this point it's a game of chess. Lol. And most likely fighting each other.

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 07:50

Did get a nice shock from 1 of the HT leads yesterday that woke me up. Lol.
Rubber grips as well didn't notice they were wet. Newbie mistake.

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 11:30

Hi Pikey,

yeah top injector looking suspect and TM you were right the sooted cylinder is the 1 firing bottom 1 and the shock i got yesterday was from top cylinder says it all really top injector either blocked or knackered tested lead for top coil getting volts theyre up to 65 volts but its an 8 quid multimeter that could be off as i thought was meant to be 55 volts.

was begining to think maybe no power to lead supplying top coil/injector until i remebered my jolt, tested anyway deffo volts theyre. im aware these injectors require programming called mitchells said call back next week. So i believe im stuck until i can get it in now. did ask him if i could disconnect see if im getting the mushroom spray in situ , he advised against this.

but i'm willing to give it a bash if you guys think would do no harm, or less harm at the point i'm at.

Cheers for all advice.

TmMorris · 10 May 2022, 12:52

If it were a normal injector then I'd just remove it, plumb it to a can of carb cleaner, wire it to a battery and the. Quickly dab the connection while spraying the cleaner but I'm aware that someone mentioned that these injectors are different to normal?

No harm in removing the spark plugs, putting a bit of rag in the lower hole and then turning the engine over on the ignition to at least see if fuel is getting into the top cylinder. If it weren't you'd have almost certainly mentioned the rough idle and by all accounts the idle seems fine but there's no extra fuel to run it beyond idle?

It could be a partially blocked injector but I'm guessing that the ECU could also replicate something similar by working perfectly at idle but not sending signals above that but I think you'd then notice it wouldn't rev whether in or out of gear rather than just when in gear, under load. I'm not an electronics person so that would need to be considered by someone on here who does understand ECUs etc.

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 14:38

Hi TM,

Been tinkering about watched a YouTube video on how to get as far Intoto this injector as I can. They're is a filter in they're too. Long story short filter was a bit mucky but after testing with multi meter and theyres a 12 volt test you can do that I found. The injector in top cylinder is indeed dead. 16.2 ohms on the good 1 thereabouts . Nothing.on the other. I've called Mitchell's they can get 1. Dunno price yet. But unfortunately they need programmed. I'm.hoping he says just bring emm through but if whole boat has to go so be it. Just thinking if it's just the emm he needs. I can take it off. And maybe a quicker turn around.. a step.forward I hope. Believe it or not even with ht lead disconnected from top cylinder it's not so easy to tell on these it's running on only 1 cylinder by ear. It was idling absolutely fine. Either that or my age / half deaf as the wife says was playing games with me.

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 14:46

And just to follow up on that. Approx cost fitted £400+ wow. Lol.

TmMorris · 10 May 2022, 15:08

Good Lord!

Has the company that you bought the used coils from got any used injectors?

It's interesting that they have to be mapped. I've never heard of that before but assume it's a part of their fuel efficiency system?

Scomich · 10 May 2022, 17:25

Hi TM,

have read on the evirude forum it is doable with a used 1 but it looks a bit of a faff. unless anyone can point me in a different direction. apparetly as Pikey said as well they are mapped to specific cylinder as well and I had read that before. guy called back 10 to 15 days coming from Belgium. i did ask if i could just take the emm in to him when it arrives but it has to be on engine and they do water test as well so will have to be left. side note though if anyone else has etec injector issued theyre is a filter in the unit itself and it does come apart with a good belt, theyres actualy a bolt hole you insert bolt to hold it while you wack it. oh well ill get other stuff done while i wait. water seperator/filter on the transom for sure. And most likely strip the good injector check filter on that and clean.

At some point i must have been mistaken when i said changed coil position and fouled on other cylinder. I thought it did but the brain must have been gone by then. sorry for the misdirection. But realy appreciate all help given.

heres the link if anyone wants to know where internal injector filter is and how to test.

https://youtu.be/6kkzZ2UdeD0

Scomich · 18 May 2022, 18:52

Wee update,

I had already diagnosed it was an injector. But i bought the lead/ software after doing tests with them deffo injector away. Booked into Mitchell's Glasgow anyway and awaiting injector. And that's that for now. Engine engine only has 450 hours on it. Not a lot for a 2010,

I'm not selling anything here but if anyone need theyre etec diagnosed. And is close to me I've no problem helping them out. Even printing diag out or emailing them it. Think decent thing to do as you guys helped me. And I thank you for that.

Scomich · 11 June 2022, 05:54

Been a while, but I thought I'd update. Still awaiting the injector from Mitchell's now 2 weeks overdue. Fortunately powerhouse marine managed to get me 1 within 2 days. Fitted yesterday. And all good. No emm lights, and engages gears without stalling out. No errors in diagnostics either. Still to proper water test. But things are looking bright at last.
I've took the time while waiting to replace all filters, fuel lines, add a water seperator, new spark plugs change gear oil and I've added a 54lb electric trolling motor. Not tried that yet. But I'm sure it will move the boat if I get in trouble in the kind of weather I go out in.
Seems to be the parts for evinrude etec especially injectors are hard to come by.
But all that aside they are a doddle to fit, with ev diagnostics, even the coefficients. As I've said Still awaiting injector from Mitchell's, Glasgow, albeit they take the money immediately. Its been paid for, so Iam just gonna take it. As I've noticed when running injector test with diag my new injector give quite a loud click, the old 1 a fair bit quieter click. Could be nothing, could be something. So I'll have a spare to hand just in case. Thanks again for all Yr suggestions. Although my first diagnosis steered in wrong direction.

TmMorris · 11 June 2022, 08:45

Fingers crossed for the water test. Does seem well worth holding a spare for that engine given the injectors seem more complex than the normal simple solenoid and potentially harder to obtain.

Did the mechanic explain who they mapped the injector to your engine? Is it something that you'd be able to download and do yourself? That would be a useful 'tool' to have in the box for that engine?

Scomich · 11 June 2022, 09:00

Hi TM,

Yeah I forgot to say that I put the coefficient file in myself with the ev diagnostics. Injector has a barcode sticker on the cable. You scan that with Yr phone email it to yourself, and when you select replace injector within the diag you put the numbers in that the barcode gave you. They're is a checksum a d the diag software checks all good before uploading g the file to emm. That all sounds like a long drawn out process ut it's done within a minute, It's all pretty simple. Same with the indexing of spark plugs they make it sound like some sort of voodoo. But it ain't. As long as you have the cable and software to do it. Injectors I meant. The inline engines seem a lot easier. As i believe if you have a v4 , v6 you do need port and starboard specific Injectors. I believe the injector head if that's what it's called is angled different degrees. For the v configuration engines.
Jess I've read way to much about these engines. Lol

TmMorris · 11 June 2022, 09:43

I wonder what that actually achieves.

I'm trying to work out why an ECU would need to be manually alerted to a simple solenoid that's the same simple solenoid as the one it was already controlling.

I recall that Evinrude had an i JE toon system at the time that claimed to make a 2s as efficient as a 4s but even if the injector had some form of intelligence it would still be fixed and the variable side would be within the brain, the ECU.

I wonder if the clue lies in whether that serial number you have to input is different on each replacement injector?

Your engine is from the earlier era of manufacturers trying to use electronics to lock out pattern parts and third party servicing, having migrated from the 'special' tools farce to try and force as many customers into being repeat buyers of parts and servicing within the licensed network.

My natural commercial paranoia combing with Evinrude being American is that I do wonder if this wasn't consumer trickery marketed as eco & money savings of a few cents on the front end while allowing the tipping of dollars out the back end?

Scomich · 11 June 2022, 10:48

Hi TM,

My understanding and I do stand to be corrected on this. Is that these injectors are more like a voice coil, ie what a speaker is driven by. Dunno what difference that makes. And the do have a return fuel outlet that goes to a tank called a vst within that there is a coil. Which water runs thru to cool the returned fuel. They're is also a small cone filter in the return pipe. No idea what that's for as you would think the fuel has already hit the injector, so if dirty it's already been to the problem area, the injector. Apparently you can but its ill advised to use a used injector because when you fit a new injector the coefficient file for it says to the emm it's new. And seemingly the emm knows what to alter as the injector ages. I find that hard to believe its not a super computer. But again I stand to be corrected. My thought are with yours , was this a money making scheme? Who knows. As for fuel efficiency, I certainly can't say deffo dosnt use a lot but I've only done small trips. Max being maybe 25 miles. And more cruising on the plane than flat out think only 5 trips until I ran Into my problems. I possibly might destroy open up my knackered injector to see what exactly goes on in they're. But I'm not expecting it to be clever in any way. If not I'd love to know why all the bother to fit these things. Well it's not a bother. But it's not exactly a DIY. Or wasn't designed to be.

TmMorris · 11 June 2022, 12:25

It's interesting how it works. Maybe 25 years ago I was looking at buying a RIB and recall investigating outboards and it was around that time Evinrude and Johnson (same company?) were promoting their fuel efficient 2 strokes with claims of something along the lines of 25% improved efficiency. It was based on a claim that the excess fuel that gets sucked in by a 2 stroke and thrown out the exhaust unburnt was instead captured and recycled. I guess that's what your unusual injector is doing?

Pikey Dave · 11 June 2022, 19:34

The Etec injector isn’t a “normal” on-off solenoid type injector. It’s based on a voice coil similar to those found in a loudspeaker. Each injector is tested during manufacturing for responsiveness/flow/latency etc. The coefficients are the characteristics of each individual injector. The EMM needs to know this, so that it knows when to operate the injector in the cycle, what frequency & voltage to apply to achieve the desired fuel mix etc. It’s actually closer to an analogue device rather than a digital “open-close” injector. The injector also produces the high pressures required for injection, the Etec doesn’t have an HP pump iirc.

Scomich · 11 June 2022, 20:07

Hi pikey ,

That explains it better and more than I could have . Still not sure why a used 1 is not recommended. Or reconditioned if that's when possible .
But the more I find out how complicated these are I'm glad I just bought new. Well actually bought 2. But I was getting impatient for the first 1 so sourced another new 1. .