Another Evinrude 150DI Disaster.

[Hightower]

Originally Posted by waverunner

Hightower,

I would not disagree with your statement about "almost every brand of product has some problems during its life", but engine blocks going bang in my book are serious problems, and if I can opt for a more proven unit then that is what I will go for.
Imagine the scene, wife and kids onboard on the way to Guernsey, sudden turn in weather, and engine siezes up!! god forbid......would your warranty be the first thing on your mind in that situation, because survival would be first and foremost on mine!!!!!
I am sorry but my mind is now firmly made up, from what I have witnessed and read on some of these threads I would not give the Evinrude 150Di a first chance, let alone a second chance.
Going back to the start of this thread, I can only re-itterate the feelings and choice words of the guy that was towed into harbour at Weymouth, and I am now certain I will be choosing between the Suzuki 4-stroke or the Mercury Optimax.

I cann't disagree that the Suzuki's are certainly as a reliable engine on the market as your gonna get and hope this is the case during your ownership. The Opti, again has a strong warrantee, however these have had their fair share of problems with ECU's and injectors and pumps. I would have thought you'd have discounted these along with the Evinrudes based on your ealier comments.

I think you have to ask the question that if safety is of upmost concern, then wouldn't a twin setup be more suitable for yur needs with double redundancy for everything, that way reliability might not be so important and would open up the options on which manufacturer and model to choose from.

[Downhilldai]

Originally Posted by Hightower

I think you have to ask the question that if safety is of upmost concern, then wouldn't a twin setup be more suitable for yur needs with double redundancy for everything, that way reliability might not be so important and would open up the options on which manufacturer and model to choose from.

Or just stay at home with all the doors and windows locked

[ian parkes]

I chatted with the guy we hired a rib from on holiday . He had honda's on his entire fleet and said he chose them as they were considered the most reliable among the local comercial users .
He had a tale of woe for just about every other make , although opti's were much in eveidence on other older hire boats with the only complaint being the amount and cost of oil they use .
I often hear about bikes breaking down because they never go a small mod done on recall usually because they had changed hands , maybe thats part of the problem with some outboards , as they don't seem to get the dealer/manufacturer follow up etc that other vehicles do.

[Seaharrier]

Originally Posted by waverunner

I am sorry but I must be missing something here.

I am considering purchasing an engine, and your quote indicates you are happy with their service even though you have had to have a complete motor block replaced. Are you not concerned this may happen again?, and will they honour the warranty a second time around if it does need replacing again? Did they say why it happened in the first place? Were you not unhappy about the fact that your boat was out of action until repaired for however long it took? Would you comfortably be prepared to buy another engine knowing the problems you have had?

If it were me I would be thoroughly p****d off.

We had a problem that could have happened with almost every engine. One of the spark-plugs stopped working. We hardly noticed the fact that our engine was running on 5 cylinders ( no shaking of the engine, RMP dropped only with more or less 200 RMP, top speed was 2 kn lower). The fact that there was no combustion in one of the cylinders created a lot of friction. After a couple of hours it broke down and created a hole in the engine block and cooling circuit. Through this hole, water could enter the cylinders.

This happend during winter, so it wasn't a big problem for us that our boat was out of action. Repair took 4 weeks. In order to speed up things, they shipped the motor block by plane.

[/QUOTE] Will they honour the warranty a second time around if it does need replacing again? [/QUOTE]

We are pretty confident that if it happens again during the warranty period we will have the same service. To us, all comes down to having a good dealer that will defend he's customers. In our case BruggeMarineCenter did a great job.

[/QUOTE] Would you comfortably be prepared to buy another engine knowing the problems you have had? [/QUOTE]

If today we would buy a boat with a 250 HP or twin 250 HP engines we would not hesitate and buy an Evinrude again.
.

[Seaharrier]

Originally Posted by waverunner

Hightower,

I would not disagree with your statement about "almost every brand of product has some problems during its life", but engine blocks going bang in my book are serious problems, and if I can opt for a more proven unit then that is what I will go for.
Imagine the scene, wife and kids onboard on the way to Guernsey, sudden turn in weather, and engine siezes up!! god forbid......would your warranty be the first thing on your mind in that situation, because survival would be first and foremost on mine!!!!!
I am sorry but my mind is now firmly made up, from what I have witnessed and read on some of these threads I would not give the Evinrude 150Di a first chance, let alone a second chance.
Going back to the start of this thread, I can only re-itterate the feelings and choice words of the guy that was towed into harbour at Weymouth, and I am now certain I will be choosing between the Suzuki 4-stroke or the Mercury Optimax.

Waverunner,

After we had that spark plug problem we had a long discussion with the mechanic of bruggemarinecenter about how we can void this problem next time. Conclusion of that discussion was can be summarised as follows:
- most probably any 4 stroke engine with this problem will normally immediately stop working (for the engine this might be better but if you are on your way to Guernsey ...)
- only way to detect this problem is drive your boat every now and then at WOT and see if you can reach your max RMP)

So if you want to play on safety and you have only one engine make sure you have all your safety gear on board + spare warm dry clothes + water and dry biscuits (and a good insurance).

Remember, no engine / brand is flawless!


regards,

[MarkM]

For safety we never go out alone to open sea. Always a second boat around.
We made our trip to the Ribex with two RIBs.

[Hightower]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

Or just stay at home with all the doors and windows locked

Don't be like that Brad

That's why I have the most unreliable outboard sitting on the back of my new RIB

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Seaharrier

Waverunner,

After we had that spark plug problem we had a long discussion with the mechanic of bruggemarinecenter about how we can void this problem next time. Conclusion of that discussion was can be summarised as follows:
- most probably any 4 stroke engine with this problem will normally immediately stop working (for the engine this might be better but if you are on your way to Guernsey ...)
- only way to detect this problem is drive your boat every now and then at WOT and see if you can reach your max RMP)

So if you want to play on safety and you have only one engine make sure you have all your safety gear on board + spare warm dry clothes + water and dry biscuits (and a good insurance).

Remember, no engine / brand is flawless!


regards,

I remember there were similar problems with some suzuki 250 fourstrokes when they first came out. Apparently the ECU was sending too weak a mixture to one of the cylinders which caused the same problem you had. A simple reprog was all that was needed!!!

[bernithebiker]

Did they say why the spark plug stopped working? Was it the plug itself, or the HT lead, or the electrics higher up the chain?

Spark plug failure is pretty rare in my book, unless it has been fouled by something, like say too much oil.

Also, I fail to see why not having one cylinder firing would cause the block to fail spectacularly. Oil is still being pumped around the engine, including to the cylinder that isn't firing, so friction should not be an issue. I know car engines can run with one cylinder out almost indefinitely. The only possible reason I can see is that the cylinder that isn't running is cooler than the others and so unusual thermal stresses are set up between cylinder walls/cooling passages. But the oil and water coolant will help to keep temperature levels reasonably constant.

If it was me, I would want more information from Evinrude. Why did the spark plug fail (or fail to spark)? And why did this then cause complete block failure? Without knowing this, how can you confidently go out to sea again?

ON various sites/forums, I have heard of many Evinrude problems. Personally I will always buy the most reliable thing I can, be it boat, lawnmower, car, whatever. But especially in safety critical applications like boating. If airplane engines can be made 99.9% reliable then surely boat engines can be too?

For me it's Jap all the way, Honda, Yam, Suzuki. (But I know Mercury/Mariner are good too!)

[Biggles]

You would have thought that if the problem was the spark plug then the dealer would have been asking the spark plug manufacturer for recompense. Whatever though in your case you got the result you desired and a working engine at the end of it. And me I wouldn't have asked too many questions after that. But it would have got me thinking.

[Seaharrier]

Originally Posted by bernithebiker

Did they say why the spark plug stopped working? Was it the plug itself, or the HT lead, or the electrics higher up the chain?

Hard to tell why the spark plug stopped working. Once the boat was taken out of the water they tried to find out why the engine stopped working. When they removed the engine crowl we saw the engine block was perfored and there was water coming out of it. This means they couldn't do anything anymore with the sparkplug as it has been soaked in the water.

The engine block was send to evinrude for further analysis as they couldn't believe what happend. Indeed a spark plug that stops working is rare. First they thought that some water entered the cylinders via the exhaust pipe but this was soon ruled out. From the wear in the cylinders they concluded that our engine had been running for around 20 hours with only 5 cylinders.

Originally Posted by bernithebiker

Spark plug failure is pretty rare in my book, unless it has been fouled by something, like say too much oil.

Also, I fail to see why not having one cylinder firing would cause the block to fail spectacularly. Oil is still being pumped around the engine, including to the cylinder that isn't firing, so friction should not be an issue. I know car engines can run with one cylinder out almost indefinitely. The only possible reason I can see is that the cylinder that isn't running is cooler than the others and so unusual thermal stresses are set up between cylinder walls/cooling passages. But the oil and water coolant will help to keep temperature levels reasonably constant.

I was told that the mixture of oil and fuel without firing is wearing out the the cylinders. That wear creates heat and at the end the weakest part of the piston / engine broke and slamed a hole in the engine block.

Originally Posted by bernithebiker

If it was me, I would want more information from Evinrude. Why did the spark plug fail (or fail to spark)? And why did this then cause complete block failure? Without knowing this, how can you confidently go out to sea again?

ON various sites/forums, I have heard of many Evinrude problems. Personally I will always buy the most reliable thing I can, be it boat, lawnmower, car, whatever. But especially in safety critical applications like boating. If airplane engines can be made 99.9% reliable then surely boat engines can be too?

For me it's Jap all the way, Honda, Yam, Suzuki. (But I know Mercury/Mariner are good too!)

I know several persons who had very big problems (yall had to be rebuild) with their Yamaha engines. 1 had problems with his 300 HDPI engine and to my knowledge a lot of those engines in europe had problems and I know 3 persons who had big trouble with their Yamaha 250 VMax engine.

So again, don't think there is one brand that can claim to produce 100% reliable engines.

anyhow, the service of my dealer and of evinrude was excellent. Since that problem we have put over 200h on the new engine without any problem.

rgs

[ian parkes]

quote
"I was told that the mixture of oil and fuel without firing is wearing out the the cylinders. That wear creates heat and at the end the weakest part of the piston / engine broke and slamed a hole in the engine block."

That was true . Had you noticed the misfire and got it sorted then it would have been ok , but to be fair not everyone would really pinpoint a rough running motor to one cylinder not firing on a 6cyl .
The excess oil blocks the fine air gaps the engine needs to move freely and overheating and seizure is the result .
Adding extra oil to the fuel can cause similar failures then people think the problem is not enough oil when in fact its too much .

[Chris]

I am suprised the sophisticated engine managment system that all Etecs have did not pick up on the fault.

Chris

[bernithebiker]

Originally Posted by Chris

I am suprised the sophisticated engine managment system that all Etecs have did not pick up on the fault.

Chris

Absolutely. Surely if the spark plug not firing can cause such catastrophic failure, then it would be very easy for the engine to detect it and shut down, or go into 'limp home' mode.

I am still suprised that something as simple as one cylinder not firing could destroy the engine.

I used to have a v-twin Ducati that lost all power on one cylinder once. I rode 50 miles like that, no problem, albeit a bit slower than usual!

[codprawn]

As I said earlier it also happened with the new Suzukis. In their case the engine was running too lean - all in the interests of the environment of course.........

[ian parkes]

Originally Posted by Chris

I am suprised the sophisticated engine managment system that all Etecs have did not pick up on the fault.

Chris

I would of thought it would too , but aren't we talking about the model before the etec here ?

[ian parkes]

I am still suprised that something as simple as one cylinder not firing could destroy the engine.

I used to have a v-twin Ducati that lost all power on one cylinder once. I rode 50 miles like that, no problem, albeit a bit slower than usual! [/QUOTE]


probably an old air cooled motor with massive tolerances and also a 4 stroke would still cause wear with unburnt fuel washing the oil of the cylinders , but its an old ducatti that probably used more oil than a 2 stroke in the first place

[Seaharrier]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

I would of thought it would too , but aren't we talking about the model before the etec here ?

Nope, mine is E-Tec.

We discussed the warning / detection issue with the mechanic back than and it appears it's hard to electronically detect a spark-plug who is not working. Don't ask me why.

Even if it was possible to install electronics who can detect it, is it worth installing this knowing that a spark-plug that stops working is very exceptional. What I mean is, they need to install some detection system to monitor the most common problems. If they start installing detection systems for every engine component, the engine would be full of sensors which increases the risk of electronic problems, false alarms…

rgs

[bernithebiker]

Originally Posted by ian parkes

I am still suprised that something as simple as one cylinder not firing could destroy the engine.

I used to have a v-twin Ducati that lost all power on one cylinder once. I rode 50 miles like that, no problem, albeit a bit slower than usual!

probably an old air cooled motor with massive tolerances and also a 4 stroke would still cause wear with unburnt fuel washing the oil of the cylinders , but its an old ducatti that probably used more oil than a 2 stroke in the first place [/QUOTE]

Not so old, was late 90's, a 900SS, making about 80hp. But yes, air cooled. Not a reliable bike, but not sure it's tolerances were 'massive'...! By comparison my Yamaha 60hp outboard is 1000cc and makes 60hp.

When you say;

The excess oil blocks the fine air gaps the engine needs to move freely and overheating and seizure is the result .

do you mean, that the excess oil is creating resistance to the piston movement (i.e. between the rings and the cylinder lining) or
do you mean that the excess oil is remaining in the combustion chamber and is being compressed by the piston on it's compression stroke?

[Biggles]

Anyone know how long it would take the water in a cylinder to cause the problems seaharrier had ?