aspen fuel

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Poly

I’ve a lot of time for Ardoran, but something got lost in translation there, either from them to you or whatever website they read that on!

Elaborate please polly keen to hear your views dismissing this theory

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Elaborate please polly keen to hear your views dismissing this theory

“They've had similar problems with other engines putting it down to the 95 octane methanol added fuel”

I assume the methanol reference there was meant to be a ethanol?

”they think the ethernol drops out and coats the fuel system”ethanol might separate out of the hydrocarbon (its a recognised issue especially with moisture around). But it won’t “coat” the fuel system and cause a problem, it’s a very low viscosity liquid, so in the presence of fuel is just going to dragged though when the engine is running. You might get a microscopic (perhaps even monolayer) coating of ethanol on components which are made from particularly oleophobic materials. But the tolerances are not that good. The US people who claim ethanol causes problems either suggest it draws in more moisture accelerating corrosion or say it leaches stuff out of the plastics or dissolved into the plastics. The last two will be no better/worse with fresh fuel and should be fine for any engine designed for modern fuel.

”to that end they say don't use fuel more than a month old”
Not fundamentally disagreeing that older high bioethanol fuel may be different in composition to “fresh” fuel but a simple one month rule seems arbitrary. I think many things may affect it - like agitating a tank in use/transport, how long it was in the petrol station tank for, how clean their tank was, how well sealed your tank is, the temperature, etc. Like anything with a shelf life it rarely goes from fine to unusable overnight.

”also some manufacturers arnt warrenting carberettors for more than a month for the fuel quality reason” did they say which ones so we can avoid them? Because you wouldn’t expect a carb fault to be out of warranty on a properly maintained engine!

”I've heard that fuel is mixed to client requirements so buying the supermarket cheap stuff as I do could be the problem.” in theory at least, you may be right, but they all sell fuel to the same minimum spec. That fuel may have some extra ingredients to justify a premium price (although it may have more spent on marketing than content!) but they should all meet the minimum spec. UK supplies engines should all be compatible with that UK spec. In fact, given that our fuel is usually tighter spec than in the US, a global engine maker blaming the fuel seems circumspect to me.

The cynic in me says, when you have a fault you can’t explain - blame the fuel, quote some pseudo science from the Internet about bioethanol and most (let’s face it petrol head) clients go away bumbling about governments interfering in their hobby for eco virtue signalling and you don’t need to admit that you’ve failed to solve a problem and the manufacturer who has been supplying engines for decades can’t explain why their fairly simple machine doesn’t do what it said on the tin.

In your case it’s all the more surprising that the engine starts and runs fine and then has a problem as it warms up... my expectation is that any “coating” problems caused by storage would be similar to the old 2 strokes without winterising issues and result in bad starting.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Yes ethernol, the fuel I used on the last trip to jura was new out the pump in a cleaned out tank and new fuel lead. He said fitted new plugs the old had soot on them but all test show all is ok settings wise so for me contaminants could be the answer. So if it runs ok when I go up with the fuel it has fine but I will take aspen fuel as a proving method hopefully. The thing that puzzles me is I can get it to run if I prime the fuel bulb I've done it at sea many times and also in my tank and videoed it for proof. I don't know how much pressure that forces into the fuel system and whether it reaches as far as the fuel rail but by pumping the bulb it's filling a gap in the line somewhere but why?

[Fenlander]

Really really frustrating Jeff... you've done well sticking with it... must have been tempted to swap the motor?

The fact pumping the primer sorts the issue should be a massive clue for the workshop guys. The high pressure side fuel rail will be at a pressure way above that manual pumping would help but of course it could be a knock on effect of the low pressure side not delivering enough fuel to feed the high pressure pump.

When my DF20 had trouble last year in Fowey the Suzuki agents were so convinced it was likely to be a failure of the low pressure pump they popped one on from a new outboard but in the end that didn't help and they just put it down to a mystery fuel contamination.

Slightly more difficult in a sib but if this was a car I'd be going out for a run in the passenger seat reading the live data from the diagnostics to see if that threw up any clues.

[Orwell boy]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Yes ethernol, the fuel I used on the last trip to jura was new out the pump in a cleaned out tank and new fuel lead. He said fitted new plugs the old had soot on them but all test show all is ok settings wise so for me contaminants could be the answer. So if it runs ok when I go up with the fuel it has fine but I will take aspen fuel as a proving method hopefully. The thing that puzzles me is I can get it to run if I prime the fuel bulb I've done it at sea many times and also in my tank and videoed it for proof. I don't know how much pressure that forces into the fuel system and whether it reaches as far as the fuel rail but by pumping the bulb it's filling a gap in the line somewhere but why?

Just incase it may be useful ,i have had two such expieriences in my life athough only one boating , 1st i had a merc 3.0 l inboard cutting out when idleing ,and after changing what seemed like most parts on profesional advice ,draining tank of fuel etc etc ,one day on a whim i changed the petrol tank filler to a lockable ,,,,,,it never did it again !!! . Is your tank air inlet blocked ?, secondly even more bizzarre on a 66 mini cooper ,again spent fortunes with garages trying to suss out similar ,but turned out i had filled the SU carb tops with too viscous oil (engine instead of 3 in 1 )
Personally i dont buy that fuel chestnut , just the dealer out of ideas !,i have drained enough fuel out of boat tanks to mow grass for the rest of my days ,and funny enough my mower is older than many on here !

[jeffstevens763@g]

Fenlander yes mate I was so mad I considered sending it for a swim on Jura. ive got a feeling it's either the pump or its drawing air very slowly if it's not fuel, High pressure pumps reading 43 psi and low pressure pump tests ok too

Orwell boy I've cleaned out both tanks pressure tested the lines on the main tank, the reserve tank has a brand new fuel line this is the second one. Fuel separator on the main tank not on the reserve tank just in case it's that although I've pressure tested that too.
One of the lads on here has kindly offered to test it out for me to save me the journey in case it fails again if it does I'm sending it back to Suzuki before the warranty runs out.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Do you guys run your four strokes dry after wash out Before next use ?

[Highland Haggis]

Hi Jeff is that outboard still got problems ???? If so just send it back mate

[jeffstevens763@g]

Interesting


https://www.johnsmotorcyclenews.co.u...-fuel-systems/

[jeffstevens763@g]

Can you enlighten me the Suzuki fuel lean burn system only allows the amount of fuel required how does it do that with a sensor if so can that get contaminated in anyway to prevent it detecting the amount of fuel needed.
Very little fuel needed at low rpm so a low flow rate ?

[beamishken]

Just cos you find an article on a spurious web site written by a so called expert doesn't confirm the theory. How many experts predicted computer meltdown on the turn of the century? & what happened, absolutely nothing just goes to prove experts aren't always right!
Personally I'm with Orwell boy and think its purely a myth that fuel causes many problems with engines. I remember back in the 80's when supermarket started selling fuel the local crypton tune centre used to always claim cheap fuel was the reason for everyones unexplained problems. The "shit fuel" myth has been around far longer than ethanol in fuel. The vast majority of folk continue to use fuel without issue and with reasonable filtration and sensible precautions when filling most will be fine. As engines become more complex and less tolerant of debris and water contamination and the ability to run completely dry for storage periods then I'd imagine we will hear more of the shit fuel excuses.
My own answer to the problem is stay away from the new tech as long as possible. My hard boat & diesel rib have old school mechanical pump diesels & smaler rib & tender have old school two strokes. Whilst I appreciate that approach wont suit everyone but it suits me.

[Fenlander]

>>>Can you enlighten me the Suzuki fuel lean burn system only allows the amount of fuel required how does it do that with a sensor

Jeff I researched this when buying my DF20A in 2016 then I bought the Suzuki service manual and studied it.

Lean burn is the Suzuki system to lean off the mixture at steady cruising speeds in the mid range to give best economy. It doesn't affect idle and very low speeds or flat out WOT.... and the fuel delivery returns to a more normal mixture when you snap open the throttle mid range.

I always thought I could feel this with the DF20 as the throttle response felt a bit non-linear compared to a carb engine.

Fuel delivery through the injectors is determined by the ECU with input from several sensors... engine cylinder temperature, inlet air temperature, engine revs, throttle opening, inlet manifold pressure, outside air pressure.

So there are many sensors that need to be working properly and no single one that determines the amount of fuel injected. When you run the diagnostic it shows each of these sensors and if they have failed how many times. It would be interesting to see your diagnostic print out and the in-running sensor values shown on live diagnostics at idle.

I assume Ardoran have the diagnostic hookup for your engine? Have they offered to share the print outs?

Edit: Also it's very odd that you were experiencing problems with idle. If the engine has started and is running then the ECU controls the idle speed and it should be near impossible for it not to steadily keep idling without stalling and at the correct speed. That was one of the very impressive features of our DF20A.

[Fenlander]

BTW I have a degree of agreement with beamishken's post. I was talking to an RNLI mechanic at the station last year and he commented Efi outboards were fine when you had a pair or backup engine but less suited to single smaller engine use where he preferred 2-strokes for the fact you could usually at least limp home whereas the Efi's ECU could simply decide not to provide a spark and/or fuel. He also thought the smaller Efi motors were far more likely to suffer issues with any contaminate in fuel.

But that was just one guy's opinion. I have an open mind as there are many folks using 15-25hp Efi motors and having no trouble at all.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Just cos you find an article on a spurious web site written by a so called expert doesn't confirm the theory. How many experts predicted computer meltdown on the turn of the century? & what happened, absolutely nothing just goes to prove experts aren't always right!
Personally I'm with Orwell boy and think its purely a myth that fuel causes many problems with engines. I remember back in the 80's when supermarket started selling fuel the local crypton tune centre used to always claim cheap fuel was the reason for everyones unexplained problems. The "shit fuel" myth has been around far longer than ethanol in fuel. The vast majority of folk continue to use fuel without issue and with reasonable filtration and sensible precautions when filling most will be fine. As engines become more complex and less tolerant of debris and water contamination and the ability to run completely dry for storage periods then I'd imagine we will hear more of the shit fuel excuses.
My own answer to the problem is stay away from the new tech as long as possible. My hard boat & diesel rib have old school mechanical pump diesels & smaler rib & tender have old school two strokes. Whilst I appreciate that approach wont suit everyone but it suits me.

Understand what your saying but we have no control over fuel quality at the pump. As for new tech I've got it so going old tech isn't an option at present thanks for input

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

>>>Can you enlighten me the Suzuki fuel lean burn system only allows the amount of fuel required how does it do that with a sensor

Jeff I researched this when buying my DF20A in 2016 then I bought the Suzuki service manual and studied it.

Lean burn is the Suzuki system to lean off the mixture at steady cruising speeds in the mid range to give best economy. It doesn't affect idle and very low speeds or flat out WOT.... and the fuel delivery returns to a more normal mixture when you snap open the throttle mid range.

I always thought I could feel this with the DF20 as the throttle response felt a bit non-linear compared to a carb engine.

Fuel delivery through the injectors is determined by the ECU with input from several sensors... engine cylinder temperature, inlet air temperature, engine revs, throttle opening, inlet manifold pressure, outside air pressure.

So there are many sensors that need to be working properly and no single one that determines the amount of fuel injected. When you run the diagnostic it shows each of these sensors and if they have failed how many times. It would be interesting to see your diagnostic print out and the in-running sensor values shown on live diagnostics at idle.

I assume Ardoran have the diagnostic hookup for your engine? Have they offered to share the print outs?

Edit: Also it's very odd that you were experiencing problems with idle. If the engine has started and is running then the ECU controls the idle speed and it should be near impossible for it not to steadily keep idling without stalling and at the correct speed. That was one of the very impressive features of our DF20A.

Thanks for that David great info, not got a read out from ardoran but have from central marine services.
The idle is at 890 to start it the drops to 870/860 it might go back to 890 then drop again to about 830 then stall it won't start at that point without priming, it won't pick up out of gear either because it's missing but hits the rev limiter before running properly, in gear it allows for to slow pick up past the limiter rpm then shoots off whilst priming all the time. Bulb in one hand, throttle in the other she shoots off like a bat out of hell bit hairy but got used to it, I can come down to high Rev displacement speed and back on the plane at will after that until it ticks over again.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

BTW I have a degree of agreement with beamishken's post. I was talking to an RNLI mechanic at the station last year and he commented Efi outboards were fine when you had a pair or backup engine but less suited to single smaller engine use where he preferred 2-strokes for the fact you could usually at least limp home whereas the Efi's ECU could simply decide not to provide a spark and/or fuel. He also thought the smaller Efi motors were far more likely to suffer issues with any contaminate in fuel.

But that was just one guy's opinion. I have an open mind as there are many folks using 15-25hp Efi motors and having no trouble at all.

Ive had 3 dfs now a 90 no problems but I ran that dry after rinsing each time.
A 4 with a bad fuel issue wouldn't start at all drained it new fuel started first pull.
And this I stopped running this dry because I was told its sealed the fuel so doesn't degrade. I had 2 yams no problems ran them both dry each wash.all four stroke. There's definitely dirty fuel around or problem fuel may be ethernol, you can buy kits to take ethernol out of unleaded also additives to do the same as in the article which says something, If my problem was an electrical/mechanical part I would expect it to fail or get worse after two seasons. Ardoran have ran it for an hour at all Rev ranges without problem at sea after doing tappets and plug change. Hopefully it's been tested by one of the guys on here today I'll see what he says if he got out which ever way it still has the same fuel I had so we will see. Thanks for all the I put will report back when I know more.

Cheers

[Orwell boy]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Understand what your saying but we have no control over fuel quality at the pump. As for new tech I've got it so going old tech isn't an option at present thanks for input

Personally i think as consumers we have total control of the quality of fuel in the pumps ,after all i had a Mclaren filling up in front of me in Morrisons last week ! and i hav,nt seen signs on motorways saying "for special petrol leave at next exit ".
HH has it right ,if they sold it too you with tales of 5 year guarantee ,then take it back and tell them to back it up . ask them how they get on when watching the discovery channel ,those engines seem to always start on there ,and those guys probhably carry their spare fuel in a bucket ,maybe thats why there always Yamahas

[jeffstevens763@g]

Up date
A big thanks to 69CMW who has been a diamond today shooting up to ardoran marine and test my boat out. Not only was this a great saving to me if the engine had failed but shows how this forum works to help all. The good news is he has done the same testing at all Rev ranges the same as ardoran with the same success it appears there was some contamination evident on the old spark plugs that the engineers think was the problem water/shite their words where that has come from I don't know never had it before I do exactly the same as I always have with no problems so keeping an open mind but taking precautions from now on with aspen and BP super unleaded that's my precaution not advercating all should consider or follow but a rough working out its cost me around £800 up to now trying to keep in warranty only to find out that I have had the engine serviced each year or on the hours it should only for Colin at ardoran to tell me it's never been recorded with Suzuki.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Orwell boy

Personally i think as consumers we have total control of the quality of fuel in the pumps ,after all i had a Mclaren filling up in front of me in Morrisons last week ! and i hav,nt seen signs on motorways saying "for special petrol leave at next exit





HH has it right ,if they sold it too you with tales of 5 year guarantee ,then take it back and tell them to back it up . ask them how they get on when watching the discovery channel ,those engines seem to always start on there ,and those guys probhably carry their spare fuel in a bucket ,maybe thats why there always Yamahas

A station put the wrong fuel in tank last year affecting dozens of motorists it happens.

Before you can send back you need to prove blame no one until now have been able to prove the fault.

[Poly]

That’s good news. Not obvious to me how dodgy plugs or tappers impacts the low pressure fuel system, but good they have fixed it one way or another.