Diesel Polishing/Filtering

[willk]

OK - not boat engines, but the same thing, kinda.

I look after a big diesel genny at work. She has a 450L day tank and a 1200l storage tank. She only runs in power outages and tests, so the fuel can be there for years. The installation is 20 years old and I know that the last batch of fuel was in poor enough condition before I used it up by running the genny and then changing the engine fuel filters...

Anyway - I'm looking for a better solution. I have a 50L/min transfer pump and it would be nice if I could incorporate it into some some of fuel filtering system, but it's not essential. Ideally I want to remove and filter the diesel from the tanks and return it to them, stirring up the gunk and refiltering it until it's is pure. There are some VERY pricey polishing trolleys on the market, but I'm not sure that I can justify that kinda of money for a single installation. Any ideas?

[Nos4r2]

Not sure what you get there, but if it's the same biodiesel added crap we have in red diesel opver here, you'd be better off cleaning the green diesel out then turning the 1200L storage tank into a bunker tank for your cars with white diesel in, but adding a takeoff so you can run the genny on it as well and the fuel gets cycled.
It's common on site gennys that the genny's day tank doesn't actually empty if it's hooked up to the storage tank, so you could have some really rotten crap in the day tank.

[Siochair]

Rather than buy a polisher have you checked the costs to have someone come in and do it for you? It might be a cheaper option to hire the service if it's only going to be a couple of times per year.

[willk]

I'm asking around for a polishing service, but I'm not coming up with much - I'm out in the sticks. If they're going to charge me a mint every year, I'd be as well spend the money and actually have something on site. I had some daft ideas involving banks of RACOR filters and a pump but it's not my special subject.

We burn Green Diesel (marked gas oil) NOS, it can be as much as 9% biodiesel so potentially very buggy. I'd be reluctant to pay for white diesel on an ongoing basis and the security issue is a PITA - road fuel just calls to pikeys.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by willk

I'm asking around for a polishing service, but I'm not coming up with much - I'm out in the sticks. If they're going to charge me a mint every year, I'd be as well spend the money and actually have something on site. I had some daft ideas involving banks of RACOR filters and a pump but it's not my special subject.

We burn Green Diesel (marked gas oil) NOS, it can be as much as 9% biodiesel so potentially very buggy. I'd be reluctant to pay for white diesel on an ongoing basis and the security issue is a PITA - road fuel just calls to pikeys.

Willk, have you tested your diesel for biological contamination?

If you don't want to order a full kit, Pm me a delivery address and I'll send a couple dip slides.

If the slides come back clear then just order a transfer pump and filter unit and recirc the fuel (should be available for about £150) drawing from the lowest point possible on the tank.

Simon

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[bedajim]

How much fuel is in the tanks now?

Do they have a gravity drain plug & what size is it?

What's the height of the drain if fitted from the floor ?

What pressure is the transfer pump giving you 50L, do you have a pump curve

How clean do you want it ?

Jim

[willk]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Willk, have you tested your diesel for biological contamination?

If you don't want to order a full kit, Pm me a delivery address and I'll send a couple dip slides.

If the slides come back clear then just order a transfer pump and filter unit and recirc the fuel (should be available for about £150) drawing from the lowest point possible on the tank.

Morning A-H,

No, I haven't had it tested for biologicals. I suspect that it may not be bad on that front at the moment as the genny actually runs well I've just refilled the tanks recently so your very kind offer of a test might be wasted?

The previous batch of fuel was probably over five years old and had discoloured to a pale brown colour, a touch cloudy. I guess I was worried about long term deposits of crud and water that might be conducive to bug growth. The motor is a very old school Volvo 120AG so she's relatively relaxed about fuel quality.

The transfer pumps I'm seeing have massive volumes, and the filters that remove water and bits down to 30 micron have much lower flow rates. Was there a specific combo that you had in mind? My current pump shifts a reasonable 50l/min that is well beyond the ability of a triple RACOR install. Well, maybe it is beyond it - the pumps shifts 3000L/hr, the filter bank can handle 2000L/hr. Maybe there is some "loss" of pumping capacity through that system....

[willk]

Originally Posted by bedajim

How much fuel is in the tanks now? 450L and 600L

Do they have a gravity drain plug & what size is it? neither tank has a drain plug in the base, both have a near bottom outlet

What's the height of the drain if fitted from the floor ? Such outlets as there are are high - 4' and 6' perhaps?

What pressure is the transfer pump giving you 50L, do you have a pump curve Pump info attached

How clean do you want it ? Clean enough that any diesel engine can use it and it doesn't create it's own problems, i.e. water in it or whatever. I'm not bothered by metallic or dust contamination or anything funky like that

Jim

And good morning Jim!

Answers in red. Excuse the rush, I'm just in from a late shift and the head is a bit muzzy.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by willk

Morning A-H,

No, I haven't had it tested for biologicals. I suspect that it may not be bad on that front at the moment as the genny actually runs well I've just refilled the tanks recently so your very kind offer of a test might be wasted?

The previous batch of fuel was probably over five years old and had discoloured to a pale brown colour, a touch cloudy. I guess I was worried about long term deposits of crud and water that might be conducive to bug growth. The motor is a very old school Volvo 120AG so she's relatively relaxed about fuel quality.

The transfer pumps I'm seeing have massive volumes, and the filters that remove water and bits down to 30 micron have much lower flow rates. Was there a specific combo that you had in mind? My current pump shifts a reasonable 50l/min that is well beyond the ability of a triple RACOR install. Well, maybe it is beyond it - the pumps shifts 3000L/hr, the filter bank can handle 2000L/hr. Maybe there is some "loss" of pumping capacity through that system....

Willk, I think you might be reading too much into your capacities that you've quoted... ;-)

Fuel filter capacities are quoted for the benefit of the prime mover that Is drawing fuel through them. For example, if I'm spec'ing a filtration system for an engine that draws 800lts per hour at maximum load then I can base my choice of filters accordingly.
Virtually any positive displacement pump (gear pump) will suck fuel from a tank and transfer it through a filter, especially if your just recirculating back to the tank. it doesn't matter if you maximum pump flow exceeds the filter maxim u m throughput, especially not in your case.
For a very cheap pump, search machine mart for "transfer pump" then call a local hydraulic supply company and ask for a "parker" spin-on assembly and order the micron rating of the filters you want (tell them it's for diesel).
450ltrs is actually a very small amount to filter so no point buying anything fancy.

Simon

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[Anchorhandler]

Btw, if anyone is interested, I may consider selling an Alfa Laval "Emmie" portable centrifugal fluid filtration system.
It's about 10 years old but has never been used.
The discs fitted are for fluids with an sg of between 0.8 and 0.9 so suitable for diesel and hydraulic oils.

It's complete with its heater pack.

Three phase electric supply. 380-440

Pm me for more info.

Simon

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[bedajim]

I'd drain the tanks under gravity and pass the fuel through a filter cloth to rough it. Store it in an IBC while I clean the tanks up+ fit a bottom drain so you can easily drain any crap in future without the hassle work required this time.
Then you could have a cheap cartridge filter rig to polish the fuel up on refilling.
This could also be plumbed into your tank drains for off line polishing of the tanks on a weekly basis.

Sorry I'm on my iPhone in bed after the works do sampling a lot of cold filtered

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by bedajim

I'd drain the tanks under gravity and pass the fuel through a filter cloth to rough it. Store it in an IBC while I clean the tanks up+ fit a bottom drain so you can easily drain any crap in future without the hassle work required this time.
Then you could have a cheap cartridge filter rig to polish the fuel up on refilling.
This could also be plumbed into your tank drains for off line polishing of the tanks on a weekly basis.

Sorry I'm on my iPhone in bed after the works do sampling a lot of cold filtered

'morning Jim..... long time no speak ;-)

How's you then?

Simon

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[Poly]

willk,

I think bedajim talks sense.

Dipslides are probably more useful for trend monitoring than a one off - without controlled incubation conditions, and previous experience you'll just know there is stuff there (almost inevitable).

Is this the time of year to be doing this? Presumably there is a reasonable risk you will lose power for a couple of days, and need it all in an operational state?

[biffer]

We are looking at something along the same idea to scrub the derv in the raceboat. We are thinking that a couple of centrifuge filters to see if there's any water or crap in the derv. We want it to be automatic so we are looking at putting a drain off that is activate by the water sensor on the bowl
We will leave it going overnight to recycle the fuel. Early day for this but I've got it in my head so it will get done

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Poly

willk,


Dipslides are probably more useful for trend monitoring than a one off - without controlled incubation conditions, and previous experience you'll just know there is stuff there (almost inevitable)

Bollox

A dip slide test will show bacterial percentage and allow you to see just how bad your fuel is.

Even if you've never performed a test before, a dip slide can be compared to a reference chart ( included with the test) which will show how bad the contamination actually is.
Incubation period is usually 24-48 hours after the slide is replaced in its sealed container.

Simon

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[indaba1991]

Fuel Polishing System - overview

Here you go Wilk - I have a continuous running system on big Indaba which I bought from West Marine $650. This is not as industrial as the Separ system. Many marine systems for big boats would suit your purpose.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Anchorhandler

Bollox

A dip slide test will show bacterial percentage and allow you to see just how bad your fuel is.

Even if you've never performed a test before, a dip slide can be compared to a reference chart ( included with the test) which will show how bad the contamination actually is.
Incubation period is usually 24-48 hours after the slide is replaced in its sealed container.

Simon

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Simon, I really do know what I am talking about! I'd hazard a guess I've done more dipslides than you've helmed tugs.

- Dipslides don't measure "bacterial percentage"
- A displide for a fuel tank should not only be measuring bacteria (as its generally regarded that the biggest problems are fungal)
- Displides are sensitive to their incubation conditions. If you leave them 48 hours in an airing cupboard you'll get different results from if you leave them in a proper controlled incubator. The former can be ok as an indicator of changes from time to time - but without proper control gives little information on a specific site.
- All microbiological procedures are very sensitive to sampling technique. You've got 400+ L of fuel, and are going to sample 0.1 mL (typically) so will be looking at a 1 in four million snap shot of the system. If its high / low how sure would you be that the whole system is/isn't a problem.
- Its almost inevitable that something will grow on the slide, if you leave it long enough, with fuel thats been in those sort of storage conditions. So you need a rational approach to how you are going to deal with the growth you see - willk's already planning to clean/polish anyway. You'd want to follow up to be sure any treatment has been effective, and as it only takes one spore somewhere in the system (almost impossible to remove) to reseed the system - so you need to keep an eye on it.
- I've never done a quality comparison on fuel displides but I have looked at variability on those used in water testing - and there is essentially little standardisation, so (i) depending which media is used, (ii) depending on the manufacturer (many are made by the same factory and just labelled), (iii) the age, shipping and storage conditions of the slide can all impact on performance.
- All dipslides are selective (to varying extents) for what they grow, its very likely that if you get half a dozen colonies of the target organisms growing that you have a whole load of other stuff in there too.

I'm not suggesting dip slides are not a useful tool for monitoring tanks - but a single test result tells you very little. If he cleans his tank and is still worried then running a dipslide as part of the routine maintenance and keeping a track of the trend would be far more use and early warning of growth than a single data point before he goes and disturbs the whole system. I know Willk has a scientific bent deep down and will get the point I am making.

[Anchorhandler]

Originally Posted by Poly

Simon, I really do know what I am talking about! I'd hazard a guess I've done more dipslides than you've helmed tugs.

- Dipslides don't measure "bacterial percentage"
- A displide for a fuel tank should not only be measuring bacteria (as its generally regarded that the biggest problems are fungal)
- Displides are sensitive to their incubation conditions. If you leave them 48 hours in an airing cupboard you'll get different results from if you leave them in a proper controlled incubator. The former can be ok as an indicator of changes from time to time - but without proper control gives little information on a specific site.
- All microbiological procedures are very sensitive to sampling technique. You've got 400+ L of fuel, and are going to sample 0.1 mL (typically) so will be looking at a 1 in four million snap shot of the system. If its high / low how sure would you be that the whole system is/isn't a problem.
- Its almost inevitable that something will grow on the slide, if you leave it long enough, with fuel thats been in those sort of storage conditions. So you need a rational approach to how you are going to deal with the growth you see - willk's already planning to clean/polish anyway. You'd want to follow up to be sure any treatment has been effective, and as it only takes one spore somewhere in the system (almost impossible to remove) to reseed the system - so you need to keep an eye on it.
- I've never done a quality comparison on fuel displides but I have looked at variability on those used in water testing - and there is essentially little standardisation, so (i) depending which media is used, (ii) depending on the manufacturer (many are made by the same factory and just labelled), (iii) the age, shipping and storage conditions of the slide can all impact on performance.
- All dipslides are selective (to varying extents) for what they grow, its very likely that if you get half a dozen colonies of the target organisms growing that you have a whole load of other stuff in there too.

I'm not suggesting dip slides are not a useful tool for monitoring tanks - but a single test result tells you very little. If he cleans his tank and is still worried then running a dipslide as part of the routine maintenance and keeping a track of the trend would be far more use and early warning of growth than a single data point before he goes and disturbs the whole system. I know Willk has a scientific bent deep down and will get the point I am making.

So I supose you believe vibration analysis is useless unless used as part of a trend process?

I recently had to call in VA specialists to help diagnose a problem with a large thrust bearing running hot. We had never performed VA on this particular drive train but almost instantly, through one set of measurements, we had diagnosed the problem!

Now you can quote all kind of stuff regarding FW but a diesel dip slide will instantly give you an idea as to any contamination problems irrespective of whether or not it's used as part of a trend process. It's for this reason that I suggested I send, free of charge I might add, a couple dip slides to willk.

You are right about one thing though, you probably have taken more slides than I have helmed tugs......

For future reference, I don't helm tugs, I manage the technical side of a fleet of them (7 of them last time I looked) and, at the last count, had circa 700000ltrs of diesel under my responsibility.

Finally, try this for size

Www.kmtlabs.com/producttestkits.aspx

Simon

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[Poly]

Simon,

I don't know anything about Vibration Analysis. I'm not sure I follow the analogy. However, perhaps you can think of it as being a bit like the engineer who said something was wrong and he wanted help finding the problem with the expert vibration system. He noticed it because he feels or hears the vibration every day and spotted it was getting worse. Until it is so bad that everything is shaking then a random person walking in might not spot anything amiss, they have no reference on what is normal. Its an engine there will always be some vibration.

Look at that 'advice' on that link ANY growth requires a biocide. What I am saying is I would be amazed if Willk tested a tank thats been sitting that long, has had a load of 'dodgy' fuel in it etc - and it doesn't have SOME growth.

Competitors will tell you only to worry/treat if you have higher levels of contamination - there is no accepted standard.

And many suppliers suggest dipslides should not be used directly on the fuel, only the water phase. That's kind of my point, there is a load of (mis)information around, and without building up your own expertise on what is normal for your situation.

However Willk's wise enough to be suspect of any good result if the fuel looks crap, has rust floating around in it and a load of water there etc; or a worrying result on good looking fuel. The bigger picture matters as much as the value - if everything is ripe for bio growth then even if the system is actually low today it will grow eventually.

[Anchorhandler]

Poly

Of course you don't know much about VA, your not an engineer....So why try to tell an engineer how its done?

Nice to hear you admit to a lack of knowledge in something though...

The analogy is that traditionally VA is used as part of a wider trending system where a historical record can be built up of a particular system or component. This is similar to what you were referring to when you talked about trending using dip slides.

VA, much like diesel dip slides, can also prove very effective at "on the spot" diagnosing of a particular system as in the example i gave you about the power train.

I fail to understand, that after showing you EXACTLY what type of dip slides i am referring to, you cannot see the advantage of me offering to send a few slides up to Willk?? Willk admitted that the fuel he has in store is potentially "buggy" so i offered to send him a few slides.

This would have given him an immediate indication of a potential issue.

Considering your such an expert on dip slides, why not tell us all what other indicators to look out for when suspecting biological fuel contamination....and i don't simply mean an increase in sludge/water build-up.

To be honest this has turned into the usual tiresome "baffle then with bulls**t" routine whereby long winded technical replies get given in response to what was a simple issue....and for that reason .............. I'm out!

Anyway have to get back to driving a tug apparently.

Simon