Engine failure survey

[spartacus]

Had a mid 80s Yamaha 25hp outboard, model: 25DM and the starter rope broke on it. Luckily we were close to a fish-farm in a sea loch and got a tow back to the pier.

Ever since that incident - I replaced the starter rope on my manual start outboards every second season, regardless of condition.

[9D280]

I think there could be a bit of truth in the OP statement, if you say second hand rather than old based on the fact that not everyone will look after their engine with TLC, and as it gets older, there will be more of an incentive to "give it a go, coz how hard can it be to fix?" which when it fails ends up on Ebay as spares or repair after the owner has extoled it's lack of virutues on forums?
My Johnson is the classic example. Powerhead ran fine, shame the previous owner(s) were a little lax in their gear change technique. Having replaced the abused parts it's now about to hit it's 40th Birthday......

The "more to go wrong" theory could be countered with "has it been serviced?" which is applicable to any engine. Also how many of them were badly rigged?

There is also the "fundamental design flaw" scenario, which is normally ironed out pretty soon after the new lump goes on the market. Clamshell is a classic example, athough as a case study I think Clamshells needed one or two mods to the original design! I'll tell you how reliable the last version of it was in either one or ten years time!

[willk]

Originally Posted by 9D280

Ebay as spares or repair after the owner has extoled it's lack of virutues on forums?

Why DO people dis their own kit on fora?

[JCW]

Mariner 60HP Efi. Good engine but had the grommet issue causing a coolant blockage and alarm (Now sold.)

Mariner 6HP 4 stroke. Used as an aux on 4.8 Ribcraft. No problems to report. (Now sold)

Mariner 15HP 2 stroke. Good engine, never any trouble and starts within 2 pulls even after a few months of no use. (Still own)

Mariner 3.3HP. Good reliable lightweight outboard for a tender. No problems to report. (Still own)

Yamaha 100HP 4 stroke (half share). Good outboard, however there was an issue with the trim and tilt mechanism which was costly to diagnose and repair.

Suzuki 5HP 4 stroke (half share) Aux on 5.85 Ribcraft. No issues to report.

Mercruser 4.2D 250HP inboard on shaft drive. No issues to report.

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by biffer

Being an inboard man I find that outboards break down at anytime. To me they aren't built robust enough.

Whereas inboards suffer from corrosion, impellor failure, pulley slipage, leaks, and they smell like death warmed up. They also weigh a tonne, cost a fortune and don't really go that fast if the truth be known. ETecs man, the noise alone is worth all the money.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by biffer

your post is mainly my point, an outboard is rated at 300hp at full rev's, you need to put it in a boat where the rev's are achievable, great, put it say on a vipermax and blast it about for as long as you can, enter a race and your warranty goes out the window, same boat same rev's same fella driving it, what are they not telling us

Yes but ... my point was that a leisure engine (whatever the makers say) is likely to be designed for intermittent use of full power (like a car engine), whereas a commercial engine is rated to deliver that power reliably day after day. If you take any new car you could think of and look in the book at the small print I bet the warranty goes straight out the window if used for racing or rallying? Derate your 300hp outboard so the same size block produces 150-175hp, pushing that through the same gearbox, and I imagine it would last for ages.

Our other boat at work (twin Volvo TAMD63 in a 12m Nelson 42) is rated at something like 235hp per engine IIRC - these are commercial rated engines - but the same TAMD63 engine is available in a leisure rating up to 370hp. Having had the 'pleasure' of organising maintenance on both the company's boats for quite a few years, there is no way I would say inboards are trouble free and a random selection of problems include umpteen impeller failures on the raw water pump, burst hoses, shredded polyvee belts, heat exchanger leaking salt water into the intake causing valve seat corrosion and engine rebuild required, head gaskets blowing repeatedly, injector cups leaking (blow by from the cylinder), quite a few oil leaks and the Volvos also eat drive plates and £5k PRM gearboxes on a fairly regular basis though at least you can rebuild those and it only goes a bit into four figures...

There are probably a few dozen others in the last 10 years but those just off the top of my head. And that's with old-tech injector pump diesels which if my experience of running a garage on land is anything to go by, are about 10x as reliable as the common-rail electrickery that is working its way into our world

Outboards = bang for the buck on a tight budget with a (possible) compromise on reliability and yes I'd love to get something with twin 6cyl diesels in if I had a quarter of a million to spare but the only way I'm going to see north of 40 knots in my lifetime is with an outboard

Originally Posted by wavelength

nowt to do with Biffer's point but using petrol o/bs in a work environment can be a nightmare. Petrol is usually unavailable in a commercial dock and rarely in a marina.

That's more to do with the UK's mental health and safety rules though, isn't it?

[Screaming04]

The op asked for first hand experience. Some posters that love diesels are using generalities it seems regarding outboards. I have a different experience. I've owned 4 large outboards (v6's) 3 gas I/o's and one diesel. I've been stranded twice. Once was a mercruiser B3 leg that burped it's gear oil triggering an alarm. I didn't have any synthetic gear oil onboard and neither did the local marina. The other stranding was a solenoid failure on my diesel (2 screwdrivers and plenty of sparks sent me on my way)

My. Experience is that larger 2 stroke outboards are very reliable ( I have not owned a direct injection 2 stroke, however )

One more thing, winterizing an outboard is much easier than an inboard, and 10 times easier than a fuel injected inboard. Beaching a boat with an inboard is also a pain as you can never get the leg clear of the water.

[Channel Ribs]

Some excellent posts, thanks.

Lots of reports of failures that still allowed the boat to get home.

The inboard debate adds an interesting twist, taken to it's illogical conclusion even new outboards are risky and everybody with an outboard is heading for disaster?

Not quite my experience: We took a ten year old Honda that had been left fallow for three years and gave it a comprehensive service. It went on to do several hundred hours day-in-day-out with a diagnosed* coil fault that did not affect performance enough for us to change it.

* It took a good while to diagnose, but we got there!

[Hugh Jardon]

my first engine was a suzuki 85 2st, it siezed but was second hand and I didnt bother to winterise it that winter and it ended up with some corrosion that caused the seizure. I had had it 2 years so the assumption is it was ok when I got it. have owned 6 outboards since and none have given any issues or faults.

on the comments regarding inboards, I understand that legs can be problematic but typically shafts are more reliable and need less maintenance

[biffer]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Whereas inboards suffer from corrosion, impellor failure, pulley slipage, leaks, and they smell like death warmed up. They also weigh a tonne, cost a fortune and don't really go that fast if the truth be known. ETecs man, the noise alone is worth all the money.

i can see you are an outboard man and i will agree they are heavy and pricey, i've got over 1000hrs on my yamaha and if you cut in half my top speed to be fair about sea miles i have still done over 20,000 miles, pulleys slip when the rust gets on them from little use, impellors much the same as outboards, no leaks or corrosion on my old girl and she don't smell either, i put my wets and pasties on top of my engine, running at 80degrees it dries my gear and cook's my pasties really nice.
the lower cg is good as well for handling and the low down torque is good for towing.
i don't mind outboards i just find the new ones gimmicky

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Screaming04

The op asked for first hand experience.

Indeed and I forgot to mention I have actually had (touching wood quickly) no life stopping outboard problems in five and a bit years. My old Johnson (sold at about 450 hours) had a starting problem once but I'm fairly convinced I flooded it by pushing in the key to activate the choke on a warm engine. Both the aux engines have suffered from watery crap in the fuel probably due to condensation and lack of use but nothing else replaced that isn't routine maintenance (plugs etc).

On the old Johnson I had a dicky neutral switch meaning it occasionally wouldn't crank but a wiggle on the throttle always sorted it so I think it just needed adjustment and I never got around to doing it before selling the boat as it only happened half a dozen times and I could never reproduce it onshore. I needed a new battery once, but that was just down to old age - I got to slipway and it wouldn't start, cell collapsed in the battery I think as I had only been out a week or so earlier.

[ADS]

I think it depends on the manufacturer and how well its been serviced.

I had a low hours Suzuki DT40 2 stroke on a previous boat, this was very low hours and was in unmarked condition but caused no end of grief on a regular basis.

On my last RIB (previously owned by NOS4R2) I had an early 90's Mariner 50HP, it was probably abit over serviced to be honest but it ran absolutely mint, much better than a friends brand new 75HP.
I managed to stuff the searider off the needles last year on an evening trip to Yarmouth, the whole boat filled with water up to the transom, the battery box, in line fuel filter, 25 litre fuel tank was under water for about 20 minutes whilst the bilge pump cleared the boat. The engine ran faultlessly throughout this whole episode, the fuel must have been contaminated through the tank vent but I had a water seperator on the transom.

I ve also got an old Yamaha 25HP 2 stroke on my Boston Whaler, not the prettiest thing and no idea how many hours its done but it runs mint!

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by ADS

I think it depends on the manufacturer and how well its been serviced.

I had a low hours Suzuki DT40 2 stroke on a previous boat, this was very low hours and was in unmarked condition but caused no end of grief on a regular basis.

On my last RIB (previously owned by NOS4R2) I had an early 90's Mariner 50HP, it was probably abit over serviced to be honest but it ran absolutely mint, much better than a friends brand new 75HP.
I managed to stuff the searider off the needles last year on an evening trip to Yarmouth, the whole boat filled with water up to the transom, the battery box, in line fuel filter, 25 litre fuel tank was under water for about 20 minutes whilst the bilge pump cleared the boat. The engine ran faultlessly throughout this whole episode, the fuel must have been contaminated through the tank vent but I had a water seperator on the transom.

I ve also got an old Yamaha 25HP 2 stroke on my Boston Whaler, not the prettiest thing and no idea how many hours its done but it runs mint!

I have a sneaking suspicion that boat thought it was a submarine

[T 15]

1st engine
1963/4 Johnson 40hp Electramatic bought 2nd hand in 1967, took engine totally apart & rebuilt it including a repaint & renewing a broken/damaged wire to gearbox that the main dealer should have done before selling it, all before using it, engine never failed during its time with us, sold in 1971/2, we just did "basic" servicing to it;

2nd engine,
Redband Merc 500 50hp manual start, bought 2nd hand in 1971/72, raced until 1974, cleaned ports etc, only problem was a broken reed valve which damage a piston but not the bore ( lucky ), when rebuilding we used tufnol to make the reeds from ( one of the first boats in Ireland to have tufnol reeds), engine went great after this until it was sold in around 1975;

3rd engine
1976 Merc 500 50hp manual start, bought new & still in use by me today, original spark plugs & prop, again "basic" servicing by us, did get a carb clean about 10 / 15 years ago after being laid up for a good few years,

4th engine
Bought new in 1991 Mariner 15 Marathon ( Yam based ) manual start, used until sold in 2003, never let us down, again "basic" servicing my me;

5th engine
Honda 45hp bought new in 1993 sold in 2001 with 570 hrs on it, main service by dealer, minor service by me, never let us down;

6th engine
Honda 2hp bought new in 2002 serviced by dealer for 4 years ( to cover 5 year warranty ) from then "basic" service by me, laid up in 2007 (winterized ) until 3 weeks ago, turned engine over without plugs etc, filled with petrol & started 3 pull, never let us down;

7th engine
Yam 40hp 4stroke bought 2nd hand in 2003 again basic servicing by me, only problem was a bad battery & broken trim sender, still in use today by us & never let us down, just very hard to pull over by cord when battery was down.

[simsy]

Has any one had to use the spare pull cord i.e. that comes with a yamaha 20hp engine. You will need a 10mm spanner to remove the auto rope return ali thing from the top of the engine then treat it like a little seagull..... (without dropping the spanner in the wet....)

[T 15]

Originally Posted by simsy

Has any one had to use the spare pull cord i.e. that comes with a yamaha 20hp engine. You will need a 10mm spanner to remove the auto rope return ali thing from the top of the engine then treat it like a little seagull..... (without dropping the spanner in the wet....)

had to use it on my Yam 40hp 4stroke, yes need a spanner to remove top cover plate, do the "seagull" thing & the 40hp 4stroke is VERY hard to pull over,

[9D280]

Did it with the old 2 pot 55. it was a foot on the transom job, and I modified the cord after that to have a big two handed bit of wood instead of a p!ssy wee plastic T, but othe rthan that it went second pull.

No flywheel covers back then!

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by biffer

i can see you are an outboard man and i will agree they are heavy and pricey, i've got over 1000hrs on my yamaha and if you cut in half my top speed to be fair about sea miles i have still done over 20,000 miles, pulleys slip when the rust gets on them from little use, impellors much the same as outboards, no leaks or corrosion on my old girl and she don't smell either, i put my wets and pasties on top of my engine, running at 80degrees it dries my gear and cook's my pasties really nice.
the lower cg is good as well for handling and the low down torque is good for towing.
i don't mind outboards i just find the new ones gimmicky

What I said was meant as a joke although some of it does apply to my last boat and its engine (Orkney 23 with Volvo Penta AD31D / duo prop leg). The impellor issue almost meant a call to the lifeboat when the thing stopped sucking water as I was exiting Chausey and the pulley / rust issue was a constant nuisance. But hey, the engine was probably 10 years old and had been badly looked after by its former owner. We had it taken out, stripped down and repainted; it looked like new after that. And yes, I used to dry my socks on my engine as well and it only used a litre a mile. Vive la difference.

[martini]

I think a lot of common issues with inboards are often down to the standard of installation.

For example my boss's Osprey 24 (not the rib), the bottom of the engine well is very flat with no sump to collect water. Add to that the under deck fish boxes drain into the engine well too. With it being quite a large area, that half inch of water that the bilge pump can't pick up equates to quite a large amount permanently sloshing around, soaking the starter, getting picked up by the belts and pulleys etc etc. End result is a rusty old lump which eats belts and has no end of electrical faults.