Honda just lost a big fan

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Jklingel

I respectfully disagree completely with the "old is dead" idea. Alloy steel is not hypalon or a car's brake line. Steel WEARS out and is not appreciably affected by exposure to air, especially when oiled. There are a few old cars on the road today because of that. Dump trucks routinely run in excess of 500,000 miles. Guys pushed dozers off into the brush when they built the ALCAN, then came back 20 yrs later and fired them up... if they remembered where they were. Etc. This is not a case of rotting; it is a case where a defective engine failed because parts were poorly engineered and severe wear happened prematurely. Age is immaterial. P, EOS. BTW: I had a Subaru that was one of the 2000-2006 (?) machines with a head gasket problem. Subaru admitted the problem immediately and extended the warranty for several years. Mine blew after 11 yrs and 90,000 miles; that is understandable and I had it repaired w/out complaint. It is of interest, too, that my hypalon is in EXCELLENT condition still. And finally, my reference to "break in period" was hyperbole; roger, it is more like 10 hrs like most engines. I'm not stupid..... well, not REAL stupid, but I DO have my days! cheers. john

No manufacturer will warrant a 10 y/o engine, that would just be insane. !

[1eyedjim]

Personally once out of warranty I wouldn't even consider moaning about something breaking.

Most boats I see for sale with etech engine have a list of warranty repairs undertaken and without getting into an etech bashing thread it puts me off personally wanting one as I could only afford an older one with potentially no warranty so what would I do if it breaks and seems to be something they replace under warranty regularly. I doubt going to brp saying its looks like a know fault will get it repaired as they will just say out of warranty.

My Bayliner is 19 years old and only done the same hours your engine has done. If I blow it up I doubt mercruiser would even consider listening to me

[Jklingel]

Originally Posted by 1eyedjim

My Bayliner is 19 years old and only done the same hours your engine has done. If I blow it up I doubt mercruiser would even consider listening to me

•• Depending on a thing called "honor". Warranty should reflect quality during use, not some artificially imposed deadline. And, btw, I assume that the "3-yr" deal takes into account average usage and is therefore a convenient, and generally reasonable, metric. But the question is, Why not warranty something to LAST DURING USAGE, not sitting on the shelf? Aren't we supposed to actually use the stuff we buy in good faith, and expect to get hours and hours of use out of it? Why do we only expect things to be of quality for X number of years? MHO: Because we have been conditioned to it, not because of any physical reason, necessarily. It's our throw-away society mentality, which has been forced on us by some industries. The idea that one rule fits all is rarely the best policy, but it is convenient and generally OK. We can extend that silly "one rule" logic to most anything and any group of people. A brain needs to intercede in certain cases. Craftsman, for example, warranties their hand tools forever, n.q.a. If you break a socket or ratchet, you take it to Sears and are handed a new one. I realize that a socket is only a few $$ (or pounds), but the number returned adds up to one H of a lot of money. That, my friends, is honor. Now, I need to take my FIFTEEN horse Honda, trusty little sucker it is, and go fishing. cheers. john

[willk]

This is a very interesting thread that I am following closely

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Jklingel

Craftsman, for example, warranties their hand tools forever, n.q.a. If you break a socket or ratchet, you take it to Sears and are handed a new one. I realize that a socket is only a few $$ (or pounds), but the number returned adds up to one H of a lot of money. That, my friends, is honor.

Naw. That's not honour its called clever marketing... Because 80% of customers will never claim and the actual part is cheap as chips. But they won't replace the stud that it damaged by being worn. So honda can replace the washer. But don't expect them to rebuild the engine.

As for a 90k Subaru 11year old head gasket - plenty of vehicles have failed a head at 11yrs or 90k. Poor Honda now needs to live up to your excessive expectations caused by Subaru.

On the comparison to the Dump Trucks I recently bought a seagul engine that was built in 1973 and had been garaged for probably 20 years. Bought untested. Ran it up in a tank and after fixing a leaky fuel washer and cleaning the points it started second pull. Good old engineering. Maybe ... ... But the tilt bracket has since broken, and the HT lead crumbled to pieces. Started fine though on first try, but needs some work to make me feel she is OK. Now should I go see British Seagul about a warranty claim on the tilt bracket - I've heard of some other people who broke theirs and i've heard dealers don't sell them anymore... ...all favouring these Japanese designs. Suspect it's done less hours than your Honda.

[Xk59D]

Based on what you have said I suspect you have spun a bearing or it has collapsed......which is probably down to the lack of use. The bearing at the top of the crankshaft will not be lubricated unless running. Given the lack of use I would assume the top bearing has rusted (fuel attracts moisture) and has either spun itself or the remains of the bearing are in the motor.

This is why I don't do winter layups anymore, I just run my engine every couple of weeks all year round.


If the bearing has let go it isn't the end of the world if it has stayed intact, if it has went through the motor then it could be a write off though. If it has spun then perhaps the block can be fixed at a good machine shop with some kind of insert or the next size of bearing up etc.

I think you need to find out more about what has happened as this might be fixable and get you back on the water. Your dealer I assume is a normal outboard shop, they won't think outside the box normally as their job is order a part and whack it on. You want a machine shop for block work or maybe see if you can get a used power head or something.

Cheers

[Jklingel]

Quick search. Gotta fish. Good reading.

BF 250 Thrust washer failure


Fishing Report Done with the CBBT for now and another BLOWN ENGINE!

Service Bulletin: Honda BF200/225/250 Thrust Washer/Bearing Failure

5th Blown Honda Powerhead Puts Me Out Again! | WalleyePete.com

[1eyedjim]

I know it's a horrendous feeling when an engine blows up and especially with the cost to repair but now people know the age of the engine I doubt anyone will say honda are in the wrong. Yes it would be ace if they accepted it and tried to help but business is business these days and if every company repaired all failures out of warranty for free then I doubt they would be in business very long but would have a great reputation.

If I remember correctly even if you took the warranty from the date of sale it would still be out of warranty? I think you are fighting a lost cause especially here as everyone seems to agree with honda

[Poly]

Jklingel - nobody is suggesting you are alone, or even that you shouldn't be disappointed that on a moderately young, relatively low hours engine a component failure has happened which has killed the entire engine.

I think what people are probably suggesting is that it could happen to any manufacturer - and if you search enough you'll find disgruntled Suzuki, Etec, Mariner, and even Yamaha owners. Telling Honda they've lost a customer is a natural reaction (although you've not really been a Honda customer for 7 years!) - just be aware that whoever makes the engine you replace it with is not necessarily any more interested in the longevity of stuff 10 yrs after manufacture.

Good luck sourcing a replacement and a dealer who can provide you the local support and interface you need to have many more years of happy boating.

[ShinyShoe]

I'd say that Honda Service Bulletin is very reasonable - probably doing more than they legally needed to etc. But even if you'd had a 250 that was covered the extension of the warranty would be out of time. Perhaps you'd have managed to persuade them to cover it, perhaps you wouldn't. But its not a 250 and its out of time.

[matt h]

I would agree with Honda. Sadly but a 10 year old outboard is gonna give issues.. Unleaded fuel creates condensation and modern engines do not like being stood over a period, it was likely due to lack of use and limited or no fogging activity that the bearing or spacer collected corrosion and just got worse from there until it got so loose it gave up doing its job.
I'm sure that Honda specify that If the engine is going to be laid up due to inactivity that the Oil and filter must be changed prior to laying up.. of coarse I would run it up to operating temp first before its turned off.

Since adding ethanol into fuel to increase the octane rating,it doesn't help with corrosion situation with fuel system materials... Ethanol may have the dubious virtue of being a renewable energy source (which is good news if the machine using it has been specifically designed to use this fuel) but unfortunately a less desirable quality of the fuel is its corrosive nature. This is partly due to the high oxygen content. Oxygen is a very active element…in fact it reacts with almost everything. It is oxygen that turns iron into rust amongst other things. In liquid form these reactions are accelerated (consider how much quicker metals corrode in water compared to the air) and when mixed with hydro-carbon fuel, unexpected issues have been identified. Ethanol is also acidic, and this acid damages many materials inside engines

[Pikey Dave]

To the OP, it took several direct requests before you finally admitted the age of the engine, so I think deep down you knew from the start you were onto a loser. Good luck with Honda & I genuinely hope that you get a result, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think that you are extremely naïve if you think you're going to get a new engine.
Just the thoughts of the man on the Clapham omnibus.

[Fenlander]

While I appreciate the distress that failure of an expensive low hours mechanical device can cause sadly I have to err on the side of taking any crumbs Honda offer (if any) and moving on.

There are two sides to this... mechanical/engineering and financial/commercial.

From the mechanical side it is a fact that time elapsed as well as run time can be important and from that perspective you have to accept as the years pile on... regardless of hours run... warranty help is less likely and faults more likely.

There are various theories as to why this failure happens but the two most frequently stated are that the vertical crank imposes extra loads on the thrust washer (compared to a horizontal crank on a car where the thrust washer really is only loaded briefly when the clutch is pushed in).... and secondly there could be an issue from build where incorrect cleaning after the block was machined has left some swarf in place which damages the thrust washer.

From my experience of engines I'd say this swarf folks find is the initial stages of damage after the thrust washer clearance has opened up and parts which should be held clear of each other are starting to rub.

From the financial perspective you have to accept that if Honda will offer a 5yr warranty and you want to run an engine with no costs above that of servicing then you trade in, buy new every 5yrs and have full dealer servicing.

My way of looking at it is if you make the choice to keep an older motor on a financial basis then take the repair implications on the chin.

[Jklingel]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

To the OP, it took several direct requests before you finally admitted the age of the engine, so I think deep down you knew from the start you were onto a loser. Good luck with Honda & I genuinely hope that you get a result, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think that you are extremely naïve if you think you're going to get a new engine.
Just the thoughts of the man on the Clapham omnibus.

•• WTF? You act like I was trying to hide the engine age. I am gonads to the wall and probably missed other "requests", too. Who do you think I am? Hillary Clinton? Sheeez. I still am not concerned about the age, and never have been, but am about the WEAR, like I stated. I think I said that before. I don't think Honda owes me a new engine, either; that would be ridiculous. However, them not owning the issue and giving a carte blance "out of warranty" without any offer of any help rubs me wrong. They could at least do one or the other, and SOME kind of assistance would be nice. I fully realize the age/warranty issue because that is the accepted norm and is understandable in most cases, which I've already elaborated on. What we need is a paradigm shift in our thinking of what constitutes "old". Cheers. I am done w/ this now. I appreciate the input but will encourage anyone to fight when they feel their cause is just, despite the popular and accepted norm. You either fight, or you roll over and pee on yourself like a puppy.

[matt h]

[ShinyShoe]

Well do come back and tell us when Honda changes their mind.

[yam man]

I could understand the thrust washers in a car going at this age with clutch being dumped every 5 mins . But not an outboard theres minimal thrust movement on a marine engine . There no clutch being depressed in out moving the crank Back an forth . I've rebuilt marine Diesels engine with over 5000 hrs the crank end float ( Back an forth movement) wear was not even 4 thou . My 2 pennies worth is defiantly a design fault .

[1eyedjim]

Haha ace

Honda may need to invest in body guards soon as sounds like sh*t gonna go off

[Bigtalljv]

I think the advice to call or write politely is good advise. You don't have much to stand on but if you work with what you got they may feel like helping. Going in adversarial from the get go is only going to make Honda defensive and not want to help.

Warranties clearly state time or usage. It sucks but that's what the lawyers all agreed on. You are the outliner where you have an old barely used engine. Hence the ask nicely.

The biggest issue is they can't give you what you need for less. The expense is all labor, somebody has to pay the mechanic.

I once got a PC computer manufacturer to refund an order several months after purchase because the computers just didn't work. They had no legal obligation to do it and didn't care if I remained a customer. I politely harassed them until they gave in. Ended up talking to the North American VP of whatever for NEC I think. Way back when.

With the history of problems in the 250 and enough anecdotal evidence on the 150 you might be able to win a lawsuit against them to warranty them but even then they have time and money on their side.

Jason

[Fenlander]

>>>But not an outboard theres minimal thrust movement on a marine engine .

Seems the problem with this design was the weight of the vertical crankshaft and its components putting a continual load on the thrust bearing... you do not get this with horizontal cranks in cars.