Hydraulic or cable??

[Tim M]

I know this has been discussed many times, but I just want to seek clarification once more!

I'm about to install a Mercury 115 on the back of my Osprey Eagle 5.6. The boat had cable steering fitted when I got it (which was connected to a Mariner 75). I've since removed everything from the boat (including the steering). My question is, is the cable system likly to be beefy enough to handle the 115, or, should I bite the bullet and buy a hydraulic system for £399. I know hydraulic will be easier and smoother, but is cable really that unrealistic on this size of engine. I know someone with a 115 Yamaha and he has cable and doesn't seem to have too much trouble with it. On the other hand I am a tad worried becasue I've got cable on my Mariner 40 and that's a lot harder to steer than twin 60s with hydraulic...

[jwalker]

Tim, a single cable will be fine in terms of strength but it will have play. It's just a feature of cable. Play in the steering will give you poor handling, especially in beam seas where the boat will swerve off to the side as the bow runs into the side of a wave. It can be quite violent. A twin cable can be used and adjusted to remove the play but it will be heavy.

The pros and cons of hydraulic steering have been discussed here at length. For me, lots of turns from lock to lock are a serious pain. I need to be able to just flick the wheel side to side using one hand with the other one on the throttle.

[Hightower]

Hydraulic Tim, you won't be dissapointed.

My theory is that if you plan to keep the boat for a lengh of time the costs are justified.

You can mix and match the steering pump and actuator (Ram) to give you a better turning ratio. I went from a 2.6 revs lock to lock steering with cable to a 5 turn hydraulic and although the difference was notible during the first few voyages, it doesn't bother me now. You can always fit a wheel spinner thing to help you during manuvering.

The reason I went from cable to hydraulic was because of torque steer and a problem with backlash the cable was giving me a speed causing me to lose stability and kind of chine walk.

[Ian Sharlot]

Well Tim
It simple, Do you want a Rolls royce or a Robin Reliant

[pressman]

Originally Posted by Tim M

I know this has been discussed many times, but I just want to seek clarification once more!

I'm about to install a Mercury 115 on the back of my Osprey Eagle 5.6. The boat had cable steering fitted when I got it (which was connected to a Mariner 75). I've since removed everything from the boat (including the steering). My question is, is the cable system likly to be beefy enough to handle the 115, or, should I bite the bullet and buy a hydraulic system for £399. I know hydraulic will be easier and smoother, but is cable really that unrealistic on this size of engine. I know someone with a 115 Yamaha and he has cable and doesn't seem to have too much trouble with it. On the other hand I am a tad worried becasue I've got cable on my Mariner 40 and that's a lot harder to steer than twin 60s with hydraulic...

Tim,
Fit hydraulic!

Fit it and forget it,

Cost of it outways replacement cables and helm units!!

[pathalla]

hydraulic...

[mark-f]

hydraulic... for me everytime

[Matt]

Hydraulic requires uncompromising maintenance. Seal, or hose failure means you probably need rescuing. Even with quite a badly damaged cable system, it's likely that it can be bodged back together enough to get you home.

[Tim M]

Hmm I guess I will probably go with hydraulic. It's just so damn expensive. Breaking down is of course another slight worry especially having read that report on the rib that all the fluid leaked out of and lost control. I suppose if I maintain it regularly I will be ok on that front. The boat will have an aux outboard so if all goes totally tits up I will have that to fall back on.

Can anyone beat £399 for a complete system?

[wavelength]

Hydraulic requires uncompromising maintenance

that rib accident on a scottish loch proved that!
However having been in a rib when the steering cable snapped it can be just as scary....
replacement cables and consol units as someone else said soon eats up any savings.

[pathalla]

Originally Posted by MadMat

Hydraulic requires uncompromising maintenance. Seal, or hose failure means you probably need rescuing. Even with quite a badly damaged cable system, it's likely that it can be bodged back together enough to get you home.

Don't take this the wrong way but... You don't know too much about boats. A hydraulic system is much more reliable and less maintenance intensive than a cable setup, any cable system I have ever run on a rib needed lubrication/looking after much more frequently than the hydraulic systems I have had (primarily Teleflex products). Cable systems have been especially bad for me in saltwater in terms of steering resistance, and a tendency to lock up if not washed down, lubricated after use. Not to mention torque steer issues. Greasy boat? Not with hydraulic. If one was running a 150 or less in fresh water most of the time, you could get away with a cable setup, but most systems will have torque steer, a pain in the ass, Try letting go of the helm with a cable system and see what happens, then do the same with hydraulic, enough said. That Formula you are running would be impossible to steer without hydraulic assist, just take off the belt driving it sometime and see how much fun it is. Cable is fine for inboards with rudders where the mechanisms get little or no exposure to the elements, but on a rib, forget it. Hydraulic every time. It is especially important when you are running big horsepower, increase horsepower and speed and you are increasing resistance to steering input in the helm that is much more difficult to overcome in a cable system than with hydraulic, did you learn something today?

[Cookee]

Also as a general rule cable failures tend to be catastrophic ones - ie the cable snaps and the engine turns to full lock in an instant with predictable results.

Hydraulic failure with a leak tends to be a slower failure without the instant full lock throwing everyone out of the boat! (unless the Jesus bolt fails!).

We use hydraulic - Seastar.

[Pete7]

In Mats defence I agree with him. On a five and a half metre rib with 115 hp there is no need to fit hydraulic steering. A good cable system as you say properly greased up when fitted will be a delight to use, easy to helm and last five years with little maintenance. It also provides feedback from the engine which will show up torque steering if the the engine trim tab hasn't been set up properly which may have been your problem, through lack of experience. Whilst excess grease might be unsightly, leaking hydraulic oil is a nightmare on a deck.

IMHO on this size of boat hydraulic steering is an expensive optional extra and £300 would buy a lot of fuel for this boat, but each to there own view point.

Tim, if your worried about the existing cable steering and don't know its age then replacing the cable isn't difficult and would provide 5 years trouble free use. Do pack grease into the steering unit and into the outboard steering tube where the cable fits during assembly. On the water take some time to experiment and adjust the trim tab behind the prop to counter any torque from the prop, thats what its there for.

My Yamaha 115 is a delight to use on cable steering and whilst I might renew it because I don't know its age, I have no plans to change it to hydraulic steering for a 6.4m rib with a medium sized outboard, its the KISS approach and a new VHF plus GPS a greater priority.

Pete

[Matt]

No No, I know nothing.

I'm aware of power assisted steering, and the difference between power assisted and non. Clearly you don't since you're getting the 2 confused. Power assisted steering is not the same, and certainly a £399 seastar system is not power assisted. Would you like me to explain the difference to you? In fact, I've just fitted external hydraulics - but still have the cable to the power assist unit maintaining a direct mechanical connection in case of loss of hydraulics. I could have fitted a priority valve and put a pump on each engine, but I like to live dangerously.

Let's go a drop a diving cylinder, or an anchor, on someone's hydraulic steering hose and see if it's OK. Hydraulic steering systems, typically, work at up to about 1200 psi. They also tend to have increased turns lock to lock, have a dead zone in the middle as the valves in the helm open and shut to turn alternate directions, and have a steady loss meaning over time the wheel steadily needs turning, even in a straight line.

My point still stands, damage a hydraulic steering system while out and you'll most likely need rescuing. Damage a cable system and you'll probably still be able to get home. Agreed, there is a limit where cable is no longer appropriate, Tim M also is also not running "big" horsepower - 115hp, on a rib (the assumption therefore being the engine is running quite low) is well within scope to not "need" hydraulic.

I suggest you also take a look at the scream and fly guys, since they know a thing or 2 about fast boats, and regularly use cable steering, although I accept it's more usually a dual cable NFB setup. I will also pass your advice on to the guys running mannefelt B23 raceboats, and the circuit boys as well - they run cable steering too, usually closed loop, and clearly, they need to benefit from the wisdom of your knowledge to instruct them that hydraulic is the best solution.

The cheap hydraulic systems also do not address one of the weakest links - the small single bolt that attaches the steering to the engine tiller arm. No system fully addresses this becasuse of the need for a pivot, but "race" systems utilising wing plates go use a much larger pivot bolt.

Finally, as referred to above, read this. http://www.maib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...l%20report.pdf
Obviously, I don't know much about boats, so most of it went over my head. I however will pass your comments regarding my lack of knowledge back to the University of Plymouth marine engineering department and suggest they alter their curriculum to suit you.

Thanks
Matt

Originally Posted by pathalla

Don't take this the wrong way but... You don't know too much about boats. A hydraulic system is much more reliable and less maintenance intensive than a cable setup, any cable system I have ever run on a rib needed lubrication/looking after much more frequently than the hydraulic systems I have had (primarily Teleflex products). Cable systems have been especially bad for me in saltwater in terms of steering resistance, and a tendency to lock up if not washed down, lubricated after use. Not to mention torque steer issues. Greasy boat? Not with hydraulic. If one was running a 150 or less in fresh water most of the time, you could get away with a cable setup, but most systems will have torque steer, a pain in the ass, Try letting go of the helm with a cable system and see what happens, then do the same with hydraulic, enough said. That Formula you are running would be impossible to steer without hydraulic assist, just take off the belt driving it sometime and see how much fun it is. Cable is fine for inboards with rudders where the mechanisms get little or no exposure to the elements, but on a rib, forget it. Hydraulic every time. It is especially important when you are running big horsepower, increase horsepower and speed and you are increasing resistance to steering input in the helm that is much more difficult to overcome in a cable system than with hydraulic, did you learn something today?

[BogMonster]

Watching this thread with interest. I lubricated my cable steering (115 Johnson) shortly after I got the boat and I noticed an immediate reduction in effort required, but I noticed on the weekend it is starting to get stiff again (after only about 2 weeks) which suggests that very regular maintenance is going to be required. It seems particularly stiff at high speed but I suppose that is just the effect of the engine's thrust and is probably no bad thing anyway as you don't want sudden steering input when flat out!

Is it worth replacing the steering cable every few years then? or is regular lubrication going to be enough?

[Jono]

Originally Posted by pathalla

Don't take this the wrong way but... You don't know too much about boats. .....

Yeah Mat !...... you "know nothing" Nobstick.....

[Pete7]

Stephen, we seem to get about 5 years out of a cable and then its scrap. This is in a dive club boat totally unloved and little maintenance, but used regularly, privately owned and cared for they will last longer. The cable tends to go over the winter and sieze up, its almost impossible to get grease into the cable so the best you will be able to achieve is clean and grease the outboard end, then take the cable out of the helm unit and get the grease into these parts too. The helm unit is normally overlooked but makes a huge difference. Worth checking the engine does turn freely with the steering disconnected as a fault here could lead to a mistaken fault diagnosis.

Heavy pulling or torque steering at your normal cruising speed (Jono steady ) can be removed by moving the trim tab behind the prop a few degrees. 5 should be plenty but have seen badly set up engines at 45 degrees which created appauling if not amusing handling characteristics before it was sorted.

Pete

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by pathalla

did you learn something today?

yus. i lernt dat yannks tork bollix



gaRf

[Matt]

You need T-Rex's steering cable luber. I'll fish out the details of it.

Originally Posted by Pete7

Stephen, we seem to get about 5 years out of a cable and then its scrap. This is in a dive club boat totally unloved and little maintenance, but used regularly, privately owned and cared for they will last longer. The cable tends to go over the winter and sieze up, its almost impossible to get grease into the cable so the best you will be able to achieve is clean and grease the outboard end, then take the cable out of the helm unit and get the grease into these parts too. The helm unit is normally overlooked but makes a huge difference. Worth checking the engine does turn freely with the steering disconnected as a fault here could lead to a mistaken fault diagnosis.

Heavy pulling or torque steering at your normal cruising speed (Jono steady ) can be removed by moving the trim tab behind the prop a few degrees. 5 should be plenty but have seen badly set up engines at 45 degrees which created appauling if not amusing handling characteristics before it was sorted.

Pete

[Matt]

Here you go:
http://www.hydrostream.org/ArticleArchives/Luber.htm