Marinising BMW 3.0 Turbo diesel

[captnjack]

Originally Posted by Leapy

Unique?

Going to make a good build-a-boat thread though

They use radiators on airboats in the south. But that's just a radial aircraft engine on the back of a flat board. There's no engine housing at all.

And they are seriously loud in in front of the engine, nevermind behind.

[Leapy]

Originally Posted by captnjack

And they are seriously loud in in front of the engine, nevermind behind.

But sound seriously good being a radial?

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by captnjack

They use radiators on airboats in the south. But that's just a radial aircraft engine on the back of a flat board. There's no engine housing at all.

And they are seriously loud in in front of the engine, nevermind behind.

And on the V8 airboats, but they aren't in an engine bay with a lid on it retaining heat!

Went on one near Miami and they handed round a big ball of cotton wool, you tore a bit off and passed the rest along - cheaper than real ear defenders I suppose!

[Rokraider]

A friend of mine used to make me chuckle when explaining the differences between marine engines, he used to say "There are essentially 3 types of engines in a marine application. Inboard, Outboard and Overboard!".

[marek916]

Right in the middle of an M57 engine conversion in my Sunseeker Tomahawk (previously driven by 2 x petrol 8.2L V8 502 Mags).
I have adapted 2 x manual 330d engines to mate with existing Bravo 1 drives using custom adaptor plates. One plate for rear of engine to locate starter and act as rear engine mount location. Another plate to adapt clutch pins & bolts to what was the BMW propshaft doughnut (now used as drive shaft shock adaptor). Propshaft doughnut drives in to custom adaptor driving Bravo input shaft.
Jabsco raw water pump driven by custom adaptor made to fit on where fan viscous coupling used to screw on.
Raw to fresh heat exchangers Bowman GH300's (ebay specials!) Charge coolers also Bowman (yet to obtain).
Exhaust (yet to be fabricated) will be dual skinned, raw water cooled stainless with mixing point just downstream of swan neck.

Electronics and software is my profession so old gauges have been replaced by touch screen PC running my custom software pulling engine data from ECUs over CANbus'.

My only remaining question is whether or not to use 2 of the 4 through hull exhaust outlets or whether to plumb in to the Bravo leg exhaust ports which exit through the centre of the prop but are currently blanked off with cover plates?
I have a CNC mill so making the adaptor couplings is straight forward enough if I go the through prop route.

If anyone needs adaptor plates made or copies of my software, let me know and I'm sure we can sort something out!

Regards

Marek
marek1@hotmail.com

[Mollers]

Hi Marek, welcome.
It sounds like a great job that your doing there.

My only concern would be that you're sacrificing a lot of hp and low end grunt by going from two huge cube petrols to two 3Ltr turbo diesels. That Tomahawk is a heavy girl.

It'll be interesting to hear how she performs.

[marek916]

Yes, losing about 100hp a side on the petrols (based on being able to get 300hp from the M57).
The factory diesel version has 2 x 200 or 2 x 250 Volvos so I guess it will sit somewhere between the performance of the two.

Maybe in a couple of years when a few more crashed ones become available (and when my wallet is up to it) I will upgrade them to N57S's BMW N57 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which are almost 400hp from the factory!

Here is a video of the first run once we had manufactured the rear engine plate for anyone who is interested:

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/N7ZshT84slY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

M57 engine first run.3gp - YouTube

Interested to know how the air cooled guy is getting on (I'm imagining a James Bond looking boat with a massive spoiler/radiator strapped to the back!)...

[Rokraider]

I have not done much recently with my RIB conversion, too much other paying stuff going on at the moment. The engine is finished and the chip upgrade is all done along with the box of tricks to bypass the immobiliser etc. I have fitted the bigger turbo and injector nozzles and should see 275 BHP comfortably. I could give it more, but the Castoldi Jet unit wont live with more, it's only rated to 250 BHP. It is nearly ready to go on a dyno for final setup and tuning before putting it in the RIB. I am currently in the middle of converting a Jeep 4.0 petrol Cherokee over to an M57, should be a flyer when its finished and economical to boot.
The biggest headache with sourcing the engine, is getting all the other associated bits as well. The breakers nick the turbo, ECU , alternator and starter and usually butcher the wiring harness to get the engine out quickly. I have started buying complete cars and breaking them myself for all the parts I need and then selling the remains on.

I am aiming to get back on the RIB when I have finished this current Jeep, I am in no hurry other than getting crucified financially, every time I take the other RIB out with the 140 suzy 2 stroke guzzling the fuel.

What are you doing regarding a flywheel on your conversion?

[marek916]

I bought a manual 330d so I already have the dual mass flywheel but I guess you could retrofit a manual one to the auto?
Why and how did you bypass the immobiliser?
Also interested to know details of your tune up. Which ECU do you have? I have the 5 or 6 plug (can't remember which) version.

[Rokraider]

I bought 2 engines from a friend who used them in his Paris Dakar racer. The ECU has been converted to a removable e-prom that has been re mapped. The box of tricks for the immobiliser circuit basically tricks the ECU into thinking that the smart key and alarm interfaces etc are still in the loop. I will have to have a look at the ECU when I am back in the workshop tomorrow, can't remember how many plugs it has. I am running the setup from a 2003 TD6 Range Rover with a bigger turbo, bigger injector nozzles and a remap. At the moment all the emission stuff is disconnected, but I have decided that I may end up refitting it to clean up the exhaust emissions along with a DPF (hence not wanting to run salt water through the exhaust system). I have also got the inlet manifolds without the butterflys as they are troublesome. I considered the Dual mass flywheel, but have decided to turn up my own with the starter ring gear on it. The Dual mass setup is troublesome and may well have problems in a salty environment. I have opted to machine a solid flywheel of the same weight. I am running a dual plunging CV jointed propshaft to the jet and using an isolater system to electronically isolate the the engine from the jet unit, in the hope that it will improve the corrosion problems with salt water. If it goes to plan, the engine will be totally isolated from anything in contact with the sea (including raw cooling water which could complete the circuit via the heat exchanger and pump). I am still keen to explore cooling the engine with a traditional radiator and hydraulic fans possibly with viscous couplings. I will be running a hydraulic ram on the Jet bucket, so there will be a hydraulic source to power the fans already there.
I am probably wandering off at odd tangents from the norm, but that is the fun of a project like this, if it doesn't work, I try something different.

The Jeep project will be helpful on finalising some of the ideas for the RIB.

What are you doing for throttle controls? I have chopped up the original fly by wire car pedal assembly and have made up a mount for the potentiometer that works with a traditional throttle lever. I have also fitted a one way hydraulic damper that allows the throttle to come off quickly, but not opened quickly, to avoid sudden throttle opening when bouncing off waves. Problem with having no cables or throttle arms to fit a spring on.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by marek916

Maybe in a couple of years when a few more crashed ones become available (and when my wallet is up to it) I will upgrade them to N57S's BMW N57 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which are almost 400hp from the factory!

I'm assuming that's what we have badged as the Yanmar BY260? Yanmaar fit a different turbo and brain but it's the same common rail 3 litre block. If we go back up to Coniston this year it is tempting to run a few more hp to see how fast she will go!

[Rokraider]

Paul Lemmer said they ran a pair of later model BMWs in one of the Round Britain races. They used the aluminium block version. Apparently they were so economical that they could carry less fuel, saving quite a bit of weight. He also mentioned that the Alumium blocks cracked along the centre above the crank from the crashing up and down and advised fitting a girdle to prevent this happening in the future. They do have a sort of girdle / oil baffle as standard, but obviously not beefy enough. That is one of the reasons I have gone for the earlier steel block. The other reason is the simpler electrics, 2003 onwards they became more complicated and started running lots of extra stuff, such as pneumatic engine mount rubbers that would soften at idle and stiiffen under load, for a smoother drive.
If you wanted to run the bigger power figures, I don't see why you couldn't use the twin turbo variable vane setup from the later engine on a steel block. Some of the tuners are apparently getting 350 + BHP all day long.

I just checked the ECU, I am running the 5 plug.

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

Paul Lemmer said they ran a pair of later model BMWs in one of the Round Britain races. They used the aluminium block version. Apparently they were so economical that they could carry less fuel, saving quite a bit of weight. He also mentioned that the Alumium blocks cracked along the centre above the crank from the crashing up and down and advised fitting a girdle to prevent this happening in the future. They do have a sort of girdle / oil baffle as standard, but obviously not beefy enough. That is one of the reasons I have gone for the earlier steel block. The other reason is the simpler electrics, 2003 onwards they became more complicated and started running lots of extra stuff, such as pneumatic engine mount rubbers that would soften at idle and stiiffen under load, for a smoother drive.
If you wanted to run the bigger power figures, I don't see why you couldn't use the twin turbo variable vane setup from the later engine on a steel block. Some of the tuners are apparently getting 350 + BHP all day long.

I just checked the ECU, I am running the 5 plug.

Well he got the first bit right!

They are lighter and very economical. They burn 110 LPH for the pair at WOT which is 70mph in our boat, this works out to 1.5 litres per mile or 3 MPG - not bad for a 3000kg 11 metre boat, of course credit has to go to the hull as well!

We made a cradle support which links the engine mounts together and this has been standard procedure for most race engines for a very long time - even the older 315 Yanmars break without a cradle - therefore having the steel block just adds weight and just as many problems. I am of course talking about racing where the boat will be landing from a great height repeatedly - not the sort of thing you would do in a leisure boat unless you like pain!

As far as the electrics go, it's the same story with fuel really - the added complexity makes the engines more economical and cleaner, the argument for simplicity is a strong one and the order we have for a race boat is for the older 315's and not the more complicated 370's.

Our engine did not come with the pneumatic engine mounts and I can only imagine that's a car thing?

I believe our motors will go to 315hp or more with an ECU tune up - that would make it a bit more lively!

Paul Lemmer may have been around for a long time but he didn't rig that boat as far as I know, I believe nothing was checked after it had done some running and I am also led to believe the failures on RB08 were down to loose engine mounts.

Photos of our cradles fitted to the BY's below.

[Rokraider]

All very interesting. it is encouraging to read the fuel figures. Paul Lemmer didn't claim to have built it etc, I think he was a passenger / co driver?
The pneumatic mounts are used in the cars.
When we strengthen the block on the off roaders, we machine a sandwich plate that fits between the sump and the block, usually in 10mm steel and using the sump bots and custom main bearing cap bolts it re enforces the block and reduces flex. This was common practice on the Rover V8 that got a bit flimsy when stroked and running around 300 BHP.
What is the book figure for your engine setup?

[marek916]

I thought the BY260 was based on the steel block (M57) rather than the Ali block (N57)?

I'm not sure what the book figure for the engine is, I suspect it's around the 200hp mark but could be as low as 184 depending on ECU mapping.

Where the 315 race engines marinised BMW's or Yanmar specials?

For the throttle, I'm buying an off the shelf electronic control from either Morse, Glendinning or ZF then making an adapter PCB with microcontroller (although I might use a PLC) to generate the throttle demand signals for the BMW ECU. I think the standard ECU uses 2 identical potentiometers mechanically linked but biased by 2 different voltages so that any given throttle position gives 2 different voltage signals (except 0). The ECU then does a mathmatical comparison to ensure the 2 voltages match up with the same physical position on each potentiometer.

[marek916]

Also, how much bigger is the turbo on the Range Rover? Is this a straight swap item?
Did you change the injectors yourself? Are they the slide hammer removal type? If so, how much did they cost? (if you don't mind me asking!)

[Rokraider]

I have a fixed vane turbo built by Garret with a conventional adjustable boost capsule for the waste gate. The turbo is larger than the Range Rover one. The nozzles are special order from Bosch's competition section and requires the Injectors to be rebuilt and set up. I have had the injectors rebuilt and setup with the new nozzles and all the seals internally replaced etc. I don't have a current price, but you are looking around £250 + VAT per injector exchange. The injector nozzles were a special order from Bosch
The injectors came out easily. Unlike the Mercedes system where they have one bolt clamping them in which causes an uneven loading on the compression seal, which causes them to blow and gunge everything up, effectively gluing them in place. The BMW uses 2 bolts per injector which keeps everything square and well sealed. Haven't needed to use a slide hammer so far. I made up a tool that screws onto the fuel line thread and gives me something to lever on, without damaging anything.

I have not thought about the issues of running a pair of engines, but one area that could interesting will be synchronising the engines so they run at matching power levels? At least you have the simplicity of straight forward pumps and control the fuel delivery electronically.
Will you have the ability in your throttle system to balance both engine throttles? Presumably both pumps will need to be setup so they both give the same amount of fuel into their respective rails as a base to work from. If you go for the bigger injectors, they can all be set up identically. Once that is done presumably the rest can be done electronically in the mapping?

I heard of a diesel conversion on a tank with twin engines and separate gearboxes driving each track. The problems came when the power was applied, one engine made slightly more power than the other, causing it to power steer under load.

[marek916]

Do you know what the Garret part number is or was it an aftermarket special? Also, does it fit the standard manifold?

I guess the nozzles are the part of the injector that allows more flow per millisecond?
I don't know a lot about the injectors other than they moved over to piezo electric ones at some points (I'm guessing these are the earlier technology?)
I know there is an electronic control loop in the ECU that monitors the rail pressure and actuates a valve to keep the pressure constant. I'm not sure if this loop can be adjusted for a higher rail pressure and if this would effect the correct function of the injectors?

I don't think there are major issues with running 2 engines on electronic throttles, after all, boats with manual throttles and 2 engines are in the same boat (pardon the pun). I presume the engine with the lower throttle demand will spool up to the same RPM (- a small amount) as the more loaded engine since the props are running through the water at the same speed. Also, the boat has a person in the steering loop so any torque steer would be offset by the person adding a steering offset...

On a different note, does anyone know the spline type on the input shaft to the Bravo leg as the engineering shop whom I'm getting to EDM the internal spline are having to try and copy a scrap one kindly lent to me by Marine Power Engineering at Hamble (thanks guys!)?

[marek916]

Also, do you have a part number for the Bosch injector nozzles?

[Rokraider]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am in this as a business (4x4 vehicles) and have spent long hours and cash sorting out this stuff.
I am happy to overhaul your injectors and fit the bigger nozzles, but am not interested in simply handing over the hard earned info for free.
However, I might be interested in doing some kind of exchange when it comes to black boxes and PCB's etc?