New Suzuki 150 challenges - Page 6

beamishken · 05 August 2018, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Searider

Call Lee Fairweather at Fairweather Marine. He built the boat and will be able to confirm transom height.
Get this in writing before going back to your engine supplier.

Dont think there is any dispute over the transom its a longshaft boat with an xl engine
The issue is does the op alter the boat to suit the engine or reject the engine and fit a longshaft.
It may help to find out why the supplier fitted the xl engine.
Was it to avoid it being too deep at rest or just because he had a xl in stock and though he'd "get away with it"?
Hopefully he had a genuine reason for fitting it and works with the buyer to find a solution

Searider · 05 August 2018, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by beamishken

Dont think there is any dispute over the transom its a longshaft boat with an xl engine
The issue is does the op alter the boat to suit the engine or reject the engine and fit a longshaft.
It may help to find out why the supplier fitted the xl engine.
Was it to avoid it being too deep at rest or just because he had a xl in stock and though he'd "get away with it"?
Hopefully he had a genuine reason for fitting it and works with the buyer to find a solution

I can see there WILL be a dispute as to whether the supplier has supplied the correct engine for the boat.
WE all can see it’s an XL engine on a L transom.
Bruce confesses to being non-technical and I think will need more to back him up than “some blokes on the Internet told me”.

beamishken · 05 August 2018, 15:07

I dont think anyone WILL dispute its a longshaft boat so he doesnt need the manufacturer to confirm it was intended for a longshaft engine.
What we dont know is why an XL engine was fitted. It may be because the previous engine was so deep at rest and the suzuki wont tolerate being so low.
Far better to approach the supplier with questions than wade in with an aggressive approach, its usually easier to get satisfaction if you can avoid a major argument.
Id ask the question why has an xl been fitted, explain the concerns regarding the rigging height and see what the answers are. Raising the a frame is fairly simple, raising the transom to accomodate raising the engine is not so simple and not particularly desirable.
Maybe the op is prepared to accept some compromise if the reason for fitting the xl is justified for the well being of the engine (ie it may suffer water ingestion up the exhaust at rest if its too deep) however if its just a case of the seller fitting what was available then the op has the ace card in that he hasnt paid which is a huge incentive to the seller to satisfy the buyer.

brucehawsker · 09 August 2018, 22:39

This from the guy who re-engined the boat. He has now spoken to Lee Fairweather who built the original boat with the Opti, and this is his reportback to me by email:

"The 6.5 was designed for the Mercury Optimax engine, this engine has a lower than usual cavitation plate so when repowering to the "newer" generation of engines the transom needs modification, this involves raising the transom hight slightly and letting the cavitation plate sit slightly higher than normal.

This would explain why you are getting more wash than expected.

We propose that when your ready for your first service we'll undertake the modification, this will be done FOC.

You will also need your "A" frame raised and we can do this at the same time. "

Any comments and advice how to respond would be much appreciated. A modified transom is not what I expected and I wonder what impact that would have if I tried to sell the boat?

brucehawsker · 09 August 2018, 22:41

Another suggestion is perhaps I have the wrong prop. The Suzi prop on the boat currently is 3x16x21 5R. I am again no an expert so I have no idea if that is the right or wrong prop....

neil.mccrirrick · 09 August 2018, 22:48

Lower than usual? Like lower by 1 inch or 5? I have never heard of this nor understand the reasoning. The length of the transom dictates the length of the shaft. Measure the transom on the vertical not the slope. That length dictates the shaft length.

Xk59D · 09 August 2018, 23:34

I would never let them bodge an insert onto the transom, you are going to have a lot of that engine bolted onto that bodge, a completely new transom is a different ball game and would cost thousands to be done correctly.

You need to measure the vertical as has been said many times, I suspect you are slightly inbetween shafts but a long will likely fix all your issues and be at a decent height

If you are close to max rpm you have the right prop, maybe 300rpm within it would be good with normal loads but your engine is so deep that I suspect when you raise the engine you will gain 300rpm more than now.

beamishken · 10 August 2018, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

This from the guy who re-engined the boat. He has now spoken to Lee Fairweather who built the original boat with the Opti, and this is his reportback to me by email:

"The 6.5 was designed for the Mercury Optimax engine, this engine has a lower than usual cavitation plate so when repowering to the "newer" generation of engines the transom needs modification, this involves raising the transom hight slightly and letting the cavitation plate sit slightly higher than normal.

This would explain why you are getting more wash than expected.

We propose that when your ready for your first service we'll undertake the modification, this will be done FOC.

You will also need your "A" frame raised and we can do this at the same time. "

Any comments and advice how to respond would be much appreciated. A modified transom is not what I expected and I wonder what impact that would have if I tried to sell the boat?

Id still say hes fitted an XL instead of an L but I guess he wont want to admit that.
I initially thought it was maybe a discrepancy in the lengths of different makes models as i have seen variations between different manufacturers shaft lengths.
On looking at the pictures again It seems clear the lengths are different.
Whilst having a transom built up isnt realy desirable it is doable and maybe not the most difficult in your boat as its a relatively open transom.
Assuming the alteration is done to a good standard after a period of use it will probably be unnoticeable to a potential buyer so probably no detriment.

Having the powerhead further out of the water and the added freeboard would be a bonus in my opinion

Trying to get the dealer to take the engine back and supply another might be a painfull process and would probably mean a "falling out" with the dealer.

It really is a decision you need to make yourself as it is quite an awkward position, obviously not your doing but your there and you need to decide how far you want to push your dealer.

A compromise on your part assuming you trust his repair skills and your happy to let him do it is probably the easiest solution.

If you do go down the alteration route i think id hang on to some of his money to be paid once your satisfied
Maybe keep a £1k back till your happy with the job.

charliee · 10 August 2018, 06:52

IMO the suggestion that the transom should be raised is clear admission of fault. Put a long shaft on and no modifications are necessary.
I would be demanding the right engine be fitted, when something looks wrong it generally is wrong. There should be no need for you to make any modifications.

Last Tango · 10 August 2018, 08:39

A soon as the boat is moving the exhaust relief will be nowhere near the water and if it's too close when the boat is stationary (blowing bubbles) a flick of the trim switch will sort it.

Don't bodge your boat to suit the wrong engine or you'll end up with a boat that's worth the value of the engine and little more.

Jeff · 10 August 2018, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

This from the guy who re-engined the boat. He has now spoken to Lee Fairweather who built the original boat with the Opti, and this is his reportback to me by email:

"The 6.5 was designed for the Mercury Optimax engine, this engine has a lower than usual cavitation plate so when repowering to the "newer" generation of engines the transom needs modification, this involves raising the transom hight slightly and letting the cavitation plate sit slightly higher than normal.

This would explain why you are getting more wash than expected.

We propose that when your ready for your first service we'll undertake the modification, this will be done FOC.

You will also need your "A" frame raised and we can do this at the same time. "

Any comments and advice how to respond would be much appreciated. A modified transom is not what I expected and I wonder what impact that would have if I tried to sell the boat?

I am not sure Mercury would agree ,,,, I have never heard of any issues or design with a 'lower than usual cavitation plate'

Over the two Ribs I have owned (both XL 25" transoms) the first had an old 2 stroke Mercury 125 HP and I upgraded to a XL Opti with no issue. I later raised it one hole based on different prop and power I suspect

I then re-used this on a new Cobra Rib with 25" transom and subsequently upgraded to a 175 Opt, - perfect fit each time with. I have recently changed to a 'more modern' Mercury F150 4S and use exactly the same mounting holes and position and its perfect. An XL is an XL and a L is an L

I smell something dropped by a four legged beast here. Sorry to say Bruce, but I am sure you need a L motor.

I definitely wouldn't want my transom or A-frame bodging. Think of the work needed to extended the A-frame - some of the electrics may need rewiring if there is insufficient slack - imagine if someone thought it easier to simply splice a bit extra cable in at the deck joint

Just a thought - do you have any paper work or can track down the dead Opti to show it was a L - the answer is there. Though just the serial number will enable any dealer to confirm what leg length it was !

Last Tango · 10 August 2018, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff

Just a thought - do you have any paper work or can track down the dead Opti to show it was a L - the answer is there. Though just the serial number will enable any dealer to confirm what leg length it was !

Insurance certificate, harbour/marina registration ?

pilotwillie · 10 August 2018, 11:20

Surely an Opti is also a ‘newer generation’ of engine. Leg lengths etc. haven’t changed since they were introduced. Or even prior.
Bruce, is there any issue with you rejecting your new XL that you’ve not mentioned ? You’re clearly not happy / convinced / knowledgeable enough for your own liking and therefore should play safe and go back to square 1 with fitting a new £ xx k engine.
If you’ve withheld payment then should be straightforward.
To have to modify your original spec transom (which worked perfectly well with a L shaft) is absurd.
I can understand the A frame issue being due to a different brand / shape cowling as my outboard also just clips mine when tilting full (and before you all jump on me - it’s an original spec Osprey A frame and correct L shaft - it’s purely the tall cowling design that causes it IMO).
The large majority of posts (by experienced members) all clearly advise to swap a L shaft with a L shaft. I see you’ve started a new thread on props, but that shouldn’t be part of your decision making regarding this.
After watching this thread for a couple of weeks now I can’t help but wonder if there’s some fairly relevant info that hasn’t been mentioned, for whatever reason.
Apologies Bruce if not, I honestly wish you a happy resolve, and hopefully it’s happened already for you, if not then ASAP.
All the best

neil.mccrirrick · 10 August 2018, 11:43

It is possible to change the shaft length gearbox and power head are all the same just a thought

Highland Haggis · 10 August 2018, 12:47

If it was my boat and the wrong engine had been fitted and all was straight forward ie long shaft was on before and the dealer had out the wrong the wrong engine on I would stop using the boat and return it to them and have the correct engine fitted if you keep using the wrong engine with set up the dealer could say you are happy with the set up so my advice would be return the boat and let them make the first move !!?

brucehawsker · 13 August 2018, 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilotwillie

{snip}

After watching this thread for a couple of weeks now I can’t help but wonder if there’s some fairly relevant info that hasn’t been mentioned, for whatever reason.

Thank you for all the many comments and advice. I can assure you I am not playing any games and have revealed (as far as I know) all the relevant info.

To recap:

Opti 150 was fitted by Fairweather when the boat was built in 2004
It blew up spectacularly earlier this year and I had to be towed back to Lymington
My local engineer who does servicing etc confirmed it was buggered
He agreed to sell the old engine for parts and find me a new one
After looking around he recommended a Suzuki dealer and obtained a good price for me
I asked him (not myself being an engineer nor having much clue) to oversee the re-engining project
There was discussion about which length of engine and I told him and the Suzuki dealer I was not expert and they had to together decide for me which engine was needed. I suggested contacting Fairweather directly....
I paid a deposit to the dealer and a consulting fee to local engineer
When the work was done, on the morning of the sea trial, the dealer mentioned the A frame problem. She was passed at the sea trial by the dealer's engineer who came out with us. I did not, regrettably, look closely at the wake....
On the way back into Lymington, well after we had dropped the dealer's engineer, a following rib mentioned the amount of water she was throwing up, and hence the starting of this thread
The dealer and the local engineer have been informed throughout of the problems (in writing)
I have paid an additional slug of money, but a substantial amount is being witheld. In addition, everything is on a credit card and I may reject the whole deal
Local engineer is suggesting a new prop after coming out with me in the boat last week - in an attempt to avoid the hassle {and risks of depreciation in value of the rib because of transom work}
Dealing is offering transom work FOC at first service (20 hours) to raise the engine AND raise the A frame
I am feeling very unhappy and let down by the experts in a field i knew nothing about and still know little

I am now trying to decide what on earth to do.

brucehawsker · 13 August 2018, 22:45

After dusting off my old papers I have found Outboard Pre Delivery Inspection on the Optimax 150.

OT919621

Can anyone tell me if this was a L or an XL?

I am asking the buyer of the scrapped engine to measure if for me but think he is on holiday....

Xk59D · 13 August 2018, 23:11

Comes up as a optimax 150 DFI L which would be long shaft according to Google, someone with mercury access could confirm.

We keep saying it but you HAVE to measure the transom VERTICALLY!! before you can decide what to do for concrete answer, your dealer should have done that but perhaps someone had a Suzuki 150xl in stock they wanted shifting so the tape measure went for a burton.

I stand by what I said at start, that is wrong engine for your boat and pissing about with props is purely that, pissing about, it won't fix Jack and for goodness sake do NOT let them bodge your transom. Get the tape measure out and confirm the vertical length then decide.

You may have put yourself in a less powerful situation by paying a chunk and using the engine. I wouldn't pay a dime more nor use it again, don't even start it just now and I would absolutely contact the credit card company to at least alert them as they may not have paid the dealer yet.

Erin · 14 August 2018, 06:50

Having looked at the photos and also being an owner of a Suzuki DF200 (for what it’s worth) I agree that you have been supplied with the wrong engine shaft length. The gap between the top of the transom and the saddle on the engine bracket is enormous. It is quite likely the transom height is oversized for a long shaft so that the anti-ventilation plate is by default 1” or so above the keel. This is typically done by boat builders to maximize performance although there is a train of thought that Suzuki’s should not be mounted too high due to an apparently larger than usual prop diameter. In my own experience I ended up raising my engine without any appreciable downside.

neil.mccrirrick · 14 August 2018, 07:23

If it helps I have a long shaft opti 225 on a 7m rib. My cav plate is about 2 inches above the keel boat runs super fine. A lot will depend on how your rib runs on the plane, some are lower than others. The point I'm making is outboards can and do run a lot higher than they used to some years ago