Old problem back

Neal · 05 May 2007, 13:47

My old problem is back.Just gone to startup the boat and looked like a flat battery got another battery and same problem. What could give the same indication of a flat battery. Thanks all

Nos4r2 · 05 May 2007, 13:50

Are your battery leads soldered to the clamps? Solder goes off and will cause this. Grab leads and wiggle gently while someone turns the key-it should start spinning hard.

Either that or your starter solenoid is dead?
Try a direct connection to starter motor by shorting across the solenoid terminals with a big screwdriver.....just make sure no fuel is lying around as it'll spark hard!

Biggles · 05 May 2007, 14:17

Neal,

Yep had this on a friends boat. Was the starter solenoid which we jumped with a pair of pliers. Loads of sparks.

I also had it with the main fuse holder coming apart under the engine cowling which wouldn't let me turn over the engine.

Aidan · 05 May 2007, 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal

My old problem is back.Just gone to startup the boat and looked like a flat battery got another battery and same problem. What could give the same indication of a flat battery. Thanks all

Its a fairly straightforwad circuit however there is insuffcent information such as I assume that the 2nd battery is a good one as one can expect their own battery to have a low charge at the beginning fo a season if unused over winter (lead acid battery that is).
I am assuming that you have checked the Isolation switch which are iffy at the best of times. Assuming that you have checked the connections then one is only left with the solenoid (relay switch often attached to the starter block or the starter itself.

I suggest you get yourself a Battery pack or flash starter or whatever they call them and earth first direct to adjacent Starter Black Wire Bolt.
Carefully with the other lead attach firmly to the Positive of the actual Starter unit (not the solenoid) and assuming this kicks to start, work back till it does not.

Aidan

adrian c · 05 May 2007, 20:03

Had a similar problem with my old Yamaha 90, some times it would turn over very slowly (like having a flat battery) or not at all, checked very thing out and found it was the brushes on the starter motor , easy to change and it has been fine since

Nasher · 05 May 2007, 21:07

Neal

Hi.

I had a similar problem with my old Johnson, it turned out to be the Battery selector switch corroded inside. Although I'm sure many things can give the same impression.

Try using a set of jump leads to connect a battery direct to the terminals on the engine the battery leads fit to.

This will at least eliminate any problems outside the engine and give you a fighting chance of deciding where the fault lies

Nasher

Turbodiesel · 05 May 2007, 22:01

First thing is ( if you have power trim) just trying trimming it up, if its fine and goes at normal speed then its not the battery but the start circuit. Is the engine totally dead when you try and start?, if so the solenoid could be at fault, if you take the small wire off the solenoid ( from memory its yellow in coulor) its held on by a small 8mm nut, then touch that wire to the live post on the solenoid then you will bypass it without all the sparks!!. If it turns over the you have a dodgy solenoid. Also check the starter make sure you can turn the Bendix around in both directions by hand it should be easy to turn, if not maybe the starter is worn out. As said before check the fuse, its a singe fuse make sure its sitting correctly in its holder and not corroded.

Poly · 05 May 2007, 22:09

And just in cast you have not checked the totally stupid (which is what usually trips me up!) then is it definitely in neutral (ie. its not the start in gear protection - or I guess any fault with that circuit).

jwalker · 05 May 2007, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbodiesel

.... if so the solenoid could be at fault, if you take the small wire off the solenoid ( from memory its yellow in coulor) its held on by a small 8mm nut, then touch that wire to the live post on the solenoid then you will bypass it without all the sparks!!. If it turns over the you have a dodgy solenoid. ...

Turbodiesel · 06 May 2007, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

What does

mean?

Neal · 06 May 2007, 13:26

Looks like me this morning in the front garden.
Cables all checked and look OK, battery switch replaced and ends retimminated just to be safe. All fuses found OK, not in gear, kill switch OK. Solenoid shorthed out (yes big sparks) but same as when you turn the key no joy just a cough from the engine and fly movws about 1/4 of a turn. There is sign the starter has been getting hot enough to melt some cable protector that was against it. Do we think this means its the starter motor? This has been a problem that i have had on and off for about 21/2 years now.
Oh and any good ways to get oil off the keyboard before the better half gets back. As always thanks for any help.

Johnwin · 06 May 2007, 14:30

I had the same problem with an old merc blueband, refurb the starter motor, re-done the wires to the starter and fitted a new battery, still no joy. It turned out to be a fault on the battery cables causing a leak to earth.

It might be worth using some jump leads directly from the battery to the starter motor just to eliminate the battery leads as a possible cause. just make sure you get a good connection.

Good luck

jwalker · 06 May 2007, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbodiesel

What does

mean?

It means I'm confused by your method of bypassing the solenoid. Maybe I should have used...

jwalker · 06 May 2007, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal

.. Solenoid shorthed out (yes big sparks) but same as when you turn the key no joy just a cough from the engine and fly movws about 1/4 of a turn. There is sign the starter has been getting hot enough to melt some cable protector that was against it. Do we think this means its the starter motor?

It's looking that way but I take it you can turn the engine by hand using the flywheel? With the ignition switched off! And kill cord removed to be sure...

Neal · 06 May 2007, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

It's looking that way but I take it you can turn the engine by hand using the flywheel? With the ignition switched off! And kill cord removed to be sure...

Yes it does turn John, have pull started it last season when i had the same problem one day (put it down to the battery then) but i have a bad shoulder so thats out for now.

Hightower · 06 May 2007, 17:53

I'm really sorry Neal that you still have this problem as I know what preperation you've done to get you RIB ready for the season ahead.

Unless someone on RIBnet that lives close enough to you, and with enough knowledge to lend you a hand, I would take it to your local/regular dealer to have to problem put to rest once and for all.

It's frustrating to have these problems and when free time is thin on the ground you feel like just giving up. I should know as I was in the same boat as you with my water ingress problem.

One last test you could do is to take the starter motor off and have a go at spinning it up.

Neal · 06 May 2007, 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hightower

One last test you could do is to take the starter motor off and have a go at spinning it up.

Is that the best way to test it Andy i am on a bit of a personal mission to sort this, well at least find the problem myself with the help of you lot

would you know if is easy to get off, ran out of time looking at it today

Aidan · 06 May 2007, 19:32

Hi Neal,

All the above are correct and several of the above may fix any specific fault within the system. However, it appears that your system could be dodgy given the use of a 2nd battery. You may have any or all of the following ( from Battery through to starter)
Dead Battery (first battery)
Dead Battery (2nd battery)
Oxidised Connections on Battery, Isolation switch, Solenoid/Starter (one is the relay switch attached or wired through to the Bendix Drive (cog wih spring return ) unit.
Faulty or oxidisd Actual Isolation switch within sealed unit (happened to me last year)
Faulty Relay Starter Solenoid unit.

You could have several of the above.

If this is the case it may take several consecutive Serial attempts to fix to reliable status.
If you do not understand any or all of teh above, do not worry as none of the above costs alot and any Mec/Elec or Auto Wiring person will solve relibly and quickly without specialist advise. I do suggest tho that given the possible outcomes of the machine letting you down, you get it checked out.
An automotive Elec will not be as familiar with marinising and salt corrosion as a marine speciaist. I think its fair tosay that anyone associated with the briny life will know what salt water will do to connections and different metals, electrolysis and electrolytic deposition (two different metals in salt water will act as a minute battery and fuse together, some exceptions of course)

Aidan · 06 May 2007, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal

Looks like me this morning in the front garden.
Cables all checked and look OK, battery switch replaced and ends retimminated just to be safe. All fuses found OK, not in gear, kill switch OK. Solenoid shorthed out (yes big sparks) but same as when you turn the key no joy just a cough from the engine and fly movws about 1/4 of a turn. There is sign the starter has been getting hot enough to melt some cable protector that was against it. Do we think this means its the starter motor? This has been a problem that i have had on and off for about 21/2 years now.
Oh and any good ways to get oil off the keyboard before the better half gets back. As always thanks for any help.

Sorry Neal, didnt see your reply.

Given that the Starter heats up without turning means Battery is ok and possibly the rest is too given it is transferring curent enough to heat it up.

i am suggesting that your Starter unit is "shagged" possibly initally seized or Terminals against the armature within. This unit needs to be taken out sent for overhaul to service centre. It may also have burned out some insulation from overheating which may represent a fire risk at sea.

I now suggest that you "bring the whole lot in" for safety sake.
Heat and Petrol (outside combustion chamber) does not make for happy news in general.

Better be safe than toast!!!

tinker · 06 May 2007, 19:45

Problem with removing it is that you have removed the load from the starter, it will then use hardly any current to turn the starter and wont reveal any weak connections or cables on the power side, (faults which incidently cannot be seen with the naked eye). Dont like to repeat the good advice but please Try it with jump leads from the battery straight to the starter, first remove other connections from battery (the ones usually used to start the motor) then connect both the negative and positive leads to the starter ( it may not fire but should turn engine over) if this works you know its either a bad connection or the control side of the circuit( unlikely though with you having shorted the solenoid out). If it does not work then its either the battery or the starter, try a good battery, if still no joy then its the starter, remove and strip down , may be worn brushes, which are cheap to replace if not then send to a shop for refurb.