Performance v Economy - Page 3

dbillyboy · 31 December 2002, 17:46

Brian, In answer to your question as to why things are so much more expensive in the UK is that we pay the prices as shown. We accept it. We should question prices and try to get items cheaper elsewhere.

We saw this in the motorcycle world with the Parallel Importing of Motorcycles. Prices of "Officially Imported" motorcycles in the UK dropped about 15 per cent when the brave dealers brought in container loads of "Parallels". So as long as we pay the UK RRP's the more we will be ripped off by the manufactuirers/importers.
Bill.

Chris Murray · 02 January 2003, 22:43

I appreciate that (almost) all boats are unique, but I would be most grateful for your comments on fuel consumption, cruising speed and top speed in the following configurations:

a) 6mtr RIB + 115HP 4 stroke 20 gal tank and 4 pods
b) 6.5mtr RIB + 150HP HPDI + 40 gal tank and 4 pods+rear bench
c) 7mtr RIB + 200HP HPDI + 40gal tank and 4pods + rear bench

Which of these (if any) can be towed and safely launched by a small/medium saloon car with an 1800 engine? If "none", I shall seriously consider a boat stacking arrangement, at least until I can get a more suitable launch vehicle.

Thanks for your help!

Chris.

Manos · 03 January 2003, 08:59

It all depends on the weight, the prop you want to have on the engine and the hull of the boat.
With the engines you describe average consumption should be between 0.8- 1.1 ltrs per mile.
Top speeds between with the standard props ranging from 45-55 knots I would say.
Towing the 7 mtr will be a problem in an 1800 cc saloon car. I think that you will pushing it to tow the 6 mtr.
I tow a 7 mtr boat total weight with engine and fuel (140 ltrs) 750 kgs (my boat is very light due to high tech materials used) with a Daihatsu 4Track 2.8 TDL and on uphills I need all the power I can get out of the Jeep.
Going in and out of the water you will definately need a 4-wheel drive type of car (preferably jeepish).
The weight of the boats you describe with fuel and full gear onboard may range from 700-1500kgs. It all depends as some 7 mtr RIBS may go over 1500 kgs.
In any case one needs more details I think to give the right answer.
Good luck!!

John Kennett · 03 January 2003, 10:57

Chris

I won't even guess at the fuel consumption, as I don't have any real experience of the newer outboards (just older 2 strokes and diesels), but I don't mind going out on a limb and making a wild stab at some speed figures:

6mtr RIB + 115hp
Top speed 35-40kt
Cruising 15-25kt

6.5mtr RIB + 150hp
Top speed 40-45kt
Cruising 20-25kt

7mtr RIB + 200hp
Top speed 45-50kt
Cruising 20-30kt

Actual results will vary due to hull design, all up weight, sea state and driver ability, but I reckon these are reasonable figures. The cruising speed is a realistic average for a passage of a few hours in mixed conditions. Poor weather will really slow you down, especially in a smaller RIB. In good conditions you can cruise at top speed, so long as your wallet can take the strain.

As a rule, people (especially manufacturers and proud owmners of new boats) wildly overestimate both top speed and cruising speed.

Most of my experience has been in two RIBs:

Crompton 5.7m with 115hp outboard
(small console, 2 seats, 80 litres fuel)
Top speed 45kt
Cruising average 20kt

Ribtec 7.4m with 165hp diesel
(large console, 6 seats, 250 litre fuel)
Top speed 35kt
Cruising average 25kt

As for towing, don't even think of trying to pull anything bigger than a 6m RIB behind your car. Even that will be quite an effort, and you may need help from something more beefy to launch and recover. It is doable though with care and a bit of lateral thinking (live slipping the man in the boatyard a fiver to launch your boat with his tractor)

Hope this helps!

John

dgpw · 03 January 2003, 10:59

Hi occasionaly tow a 585 ribtec with a 100 with a volvo L reg volvo 440 but it is a 2.0 L It manages fine and will move the boat easily the problem comes when the slip is wet frount wheal drive with the weight on the back means very little grip and the only way is a rope. I have also seen th eboat pulled out by a golf tdi 130 break when my handbreak faild on the truck i was using. (thanks Chris) and that managed fine. Any way If I was u I would go for the storage option much less hassel and far better on you cluch. Have also moved a 7.8 Balistic around a yard with the volvo and seemes to be fine even up ramps ect though you wind for ever on the jocky as the suspension takes up.

Andy · 03 January 2003, 13:10

May years ago when my money bought the boat and the car was secondary, I used to tow and launch my Ribtech 585, Yam 115 with a 1.4l ford escort. No probs the gear ratio of the car was great for recovery, even when loaded with dive gear. However the clutch was always hot!!

I think the issue is not towing the boat but stopping safely. Once the boat is moving then towing is easy with the exception of the odd hill. My little escort was a bugger to stop!! Boat just pushes you along.

Now adays my 2.4l Audi A4 Avant is crap at recovering the same boat, the wheels spin and the torque is in the wrong place for pull off performance. I think I am going to be buggered in a few weeks when my new boat arrives - 6.85 with 200 Yam. Time to sell the Audi and by another escort! Joke

Alan · 03 January 2003, 19:26

The 150 and 200 Yam HPDI's will give around 1l per mile at cruising speeds (30-35kts say.). 1800 car will tow upto and around 6-6.5m but not very quickly! You will also have to pick your slipways carefully!

I run a 7.5m boat with the 200HPDI. She will do approx 50kts flat out and cruises easily at 25- 35kts at 1l per mile. I tow her with a 3L Isuzu Trooper. All up weight of the rig as it has a very heavy duty trailer with 50 galls of fuel on board is a good 2400kg which puts it beyond smaller 4x4's.

HTH,
Alan

Chris Murray · 03 January 2003, 22:55

What a great forum!

Thanks everyone for your input - it is exactly what I wanted to know. The 7mtr RIB + 200HP HPDI is certainly looking very attractive. I shall put my name down for a slot in the boat rack, as soon as I have sold my current boat ... but my wife still won't let me have a new one till next year!

I am not quite sure why the 150 and 200 should have the same fuel consumption, even if they are the same 2.5 litre block. I should have thought that the greater HP would come from slurping more fuel, or is it that at a given cruising speed, the same amount of energy is needed to drive the prop shaft, so an identical amount of fuel is needed?

If so, the 200 sounds like a superb engine, as the additional acceleration and top end should give tremendous performance, yet it appears to use the same fuel at cruising speeds, based on the info that you have kindly shared.

I am off to the Show tomorrow. Do say hello, if you see me - I am the one with the shiney head and am likely to be hanging around the RIB and outboard stands. I used to have hair but it seems to have got blown away in the Solent!

Regards,

Chris.

whitingiom · 03 January 2003, 23:07

I tow mine with a Honda CRV (wife's)! Says it will cope with up to 1000k unbraked or 1500k braked trailer and it uses 4wd when needed.

There is a guy in Port St Mary on the IoM that launches a 5.8m Tornado with an MX 5!

There is also a slip in Peel, and that's steep - there's a story doing the rounds that Peel Lifeboat tractor has pulled out more cars in 2002, than there have been 'launches in anger'.

John Kennett · 04 January 2003, 10:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Murray
I am not quite sure why the 150 and 200 should have the same fuel consumption, even if they are the same 2.5 litre block. I should have thought that the greater HP would come from slurping more fuel, or is it that at a given cruising speed, the same amount of energy is needed to drive the prop shaft, so an identical amount of fuel is needed?

That's pretty much how it seems to work, give or take a bit. It also depends how heavy your hand is on the throttle

If you thrash either engine it will still guzzle fuel. I don't know whether the increase in top speed with the 200 would balance out the increase in fuel consumption, but at cruising speeds you should be OK.

John

Garygee · 04 January 2003, 12:18

Hi folks

As far as towing goes I have towed with quite a few vehicles.

I now use a Subaru Impreza, and its great.
2L engine with loads of torque, 4 wheel drive which have never failed even on really steep slippy slips, optional low ratio box option, giving a very low gear and you can shift if while driving.(10 gears in total + 2 reverse)

All this toghther with a car that handles like the dogs "bits".

Even with this though i would not like to have pulled anything bigger then about 6M.

The only down side is the insurance and the vehicle is a bit light at 1280Kg.
On the issue of weight, its never recomended to tow anything heavier then the towing vehicle and some people say only upto 80% of the towing vehicles weight.

A question for whitingiom though in the UK the max limit for unbraked is 750Kg is it different in the IOM?.

Happy new year everyone
Gary

Manos · 04 January 2003, 18:02

I have tests (in Greek) of all those engines you are talking about with consumprion curves, performance on a 6.5 mtr RIB with various props. The test also advises on RIB weight sea state and many other factrs that affect acceleration, cruising and top end speed. I'm off tomorrow for 3 weeks on bizs to Greece and Egypt. As is a holiday in Greece on Monday (Epiphany) I will try to translate as much as I can and post some info in your thread with photos too.

To add something on what JK told you in his last communication is that in basic Naval Engineering/Architecture you learn that the increase in BHP (after a point) does not mean proportionate increase on hull speed (that is on ships, displacement small craft i.e. sailing yachts, Motor Boats etc).
However, the same principal similarly applies on fast planing hulls such as RIBs. I think that you top end speed (due to hull constraints allone) if you have a 200 bhp instead of 150 bhp on board will be the same (give or take 2-3 knots max) . However, what you would actually gain if you go for a bigger engine that is, is pull/faster acceleration and power in bad weather or whenever you need it. At cruising speeds (i.e. between 20-28 knots) you will find that on both motors revs will be more or less on the same level.

jwalker · 05 January 2003, 01:19

I am not quite sure why the 150 and 200 should have the same fuel consumption, even if they are the same 2.5 litre block. I should have thought that the greater HP would come from slurping more fuel, or is it that at a given cruising speed, the same amount of energy is needed to drive the prop shaft, so an identical amount of fuel is needed?

Chris, yeh, I agree with JK. who confirmed what you guessed. For a given type of engine, the efficiency is approx the same. To move x amount of weight you require y amout of energy. Therefore, because the efficiencies are similar, you use about the
I'm running out of word space..... continued below

jwalker · 05 January 2003, 01:30

same amount of fuel, no matter what the horse power, for a given load/speed. Of course, 200hp will let you go faster than 150. This will require more energy so you’ll use more fuel. The new 2 strokes (optimax etc.) use about the same fuel as the old 2 strokes when at or close to full throttle. But, at part throttle, the old units waste more fuel through the exhaust port. However, the differences are worth having but they’re not earth shattering. You might pick up a new old tech fuel injected 200 for around £4000 but you are likely to pay in excess of £8000 for a new Opti or Ficht. £4000 buys a lot of fuel, especially when it is only the difference in consumption you need take into account. A good, fuel injected, old tech motor will tick over all day and is faily smoke free too.
I've 6.5mtr with lots of gear, which makes it pretty heavy, and it is driven by a 2.7 ltr V6 Suzuki 200. It does 52 mph flat out and, in a force 3, will cruise all day at 38 - 42 mph. At cruising is does, almost exactly, 4mpg. These are statute miles.
JW.

seahound · 05 January 2003, 15:05

I am interested in buying a couple of yam 200 hpdi or 200 ficht's from abroad and importing. Does anyone have contact addresses for reliable dealers ? and what prices should i expect to pay.

Cheers
Steve

Chris Murray · 05 January 2003, 16:39

Hi Steve,

I can't help with the contacts and you probably have different Customs arrangements in Alderney, but for anyone thinking of importing to the UK, the following might be useful:

I spoke to HM Customs at the Boat Show yesterday and was advised that in order to establish duty payable on an engine (or anything else for that matter) that is imported into the UK, we need to:

a) Establish the "CIF" value (Cost + Insurance + Freight). This is the amount on which any duty would be payable.

b) Obtain a "tariff number". This is a ten-digit number and may be obtained (so I have been advised) by telephoning 01702 366 077.
It is possible that the person might let you know the percentage of duty payable, but you will probably have to go to step (c) for this.

c) Call the National Information number 0845 010 9000, who will match up the tariff number with a rate of duty payable.

NOTE: VAT will then be payable on the entire amount - (CIF + Duty).

In certain circumstances, the rate of duty might be reduced (possibly to zero) if you can obtain a "preference document" from the country of manufacture but only if it is also the one that you are importing from. This may well apply to developing countries, for example. Further investigation would be needed to establish this in any particular case.

I hope that this info will be useful to someone!

Chris.

crazyhorse · 05 January 2003, 16:54

The above post is correct exept it works out at Cost of item + insurance costs+ freight costs+import duty Total + 17.5% VAT all added up,GIVES YOU THE TOTAL COST OF ITEM.

For the U.K .

n.b Channel islands the same excluding 17.5%Vat.

Regardes Crazyhorse

Alan · 05 January 2003, 16:57

Chris is right that duty is paid on the "landed" price of goods into UK so including shipping charges and VAT of course on top of that. There is a tariff code in existence for just about anything you can think of down to the most minute detail so there will be one that covers "outboard engines". The preference certificates that he mentions are concerned with fostering easy trading relationships with certain countries. For example on certain goods the company I work for is able to pay zero duty on products manufactured in China. As far as buying an outboard (or two) abroad then you are likely to have to pay 5-10% duty plus the dreaded VAT.

In my mind there are two ways of going about purchasing outboards or any really expensive piece of kit overseas - 1) source it yourself and find a good freight forwarder who can arrange shipment and sort out all the customs stuff for you (for a fee of course) or 2) find one of the companies around who already import grey outboards. I am sure that on point 2 Manos should be able to help with his contacts in South Africa. Another potential source for grey outboards is http://www.outboardsdirect.co.uk/ (Note I have no experience of their service good or bad)

Assuming Steve that your Seahound is Chris Stricklands old Scorpion with the twin Promax 300's then I can see why you might want to replace with more fuel efficient units!! Chris once told me how much per mile the boat cost to run. I fell off my chair!

HTH, Alan

crazyhorse · 05 January 2003, 17:29

If your purchasing a outboard then buying 25% over your hp requirments will be the most economical for running costs go.The down being purchase price.

As you may be aware that any engine backed off by approximatley a 3rd will run at its most fuel efficencient for power required.

So a 200hp will be more fuel efficient backed off to a third throttle than a 150hp at its peak reves giving the same speed and power.

If you dont run with the idea of speaking to Hugo for a unbiased opinion,instead of personal ones then as a rule of thumb is over power so as to under rev and you will get longevity and fuel consumption.

I personaly havnt followed whats happening in the outboard marketplace for over a yr, but would definatley ask them that know,including JK which way would he jump.

Good luck Crazyhorse

Dirk Diggler · 05 January 2003, 17:58

A few months ago, when I was looking to buy a new outboard, I was quoted £4850 + vat for an Optimax 150 from a dealer in Europe. Every year he does a deal with Marine Power in Belgium for a killer price on one model of Merc Outboard. I don't know what this years model is but will find out if anybody is interested.

No duty to pay, and he is only a couple of hours from the Channel Tunnel!