Problems with tell tale spout

Chanchan168 · 13 August 2017, 15:04

Hi all,

I've got a 2002 hpdi 150 that I've just serviced. (Top end). She was working ok on muffs but I wanted to run her longer to test her up to temp.

I put the motor in a bongo, covered the inlet, but I've got no tell tale. The impeller was changed a couple of years ago and she's only done around 30 hours before I bought her.

Any ideas what it could be please??

I was originally thinking maybe salt crystals in the tell tale, but I'm more inclined to think it's the impeller or water pump as on a pressurized feed, such as on the muffs, it's fine, but when she try's to pick up for herself, no tell tale.

Does this sound about right??

If so do I just change the impeller or replace the whole water pump kit???

P.s. I was gonna keep her running with no tell tale just to see if the high temp alarm cuts in, but I'm worried if doing damage by running her in a bongo without a tell tale.

Thanks in Advance
Craig

spartacus · 13 August 2017, 15:11

No harm in changing the impeller. Drop the gear oil first. If it looks like mayo, then you have water ingress, so a water-pump kit and 'o' ring bearing seal would be the way to go. If it's okay, and there's no scoring on the stainless steel plate, you can probably leave. Also renew the fibre washers on the drain and fill screws.

No tell-tale - could be blocked outlet as suggested. You can run a length of strimmer nylon up it when it's running and that should work. Also check the thermostat. You'll need a new gasket. That's as good a check as any for salt crystal build up.

Chanchan168 · 13 August 2017, 15:33

Thanks Spartacus, appreciated.

I suppose if at least I change the pump and impeller, it will save me a job next season and will give me a fresh start to move on with.

Thanks again

jeffstevens763@g · 13 August 2017, 19:46

Just make sure you have a decent head of water above the inlet my Suzukis need quite a bit of water over and above the inlet

Chanchan168 · 13 August 2017, 21:14

Brilliant, thank you

Last Tango · 13 August 2017, 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Just make sure you have a decent head of water above the inlet my Suzukis need quite a bit of water over and above the inlet

+1

I've had the same problem with a Suzuki. The pump seems to be mounted relatively high and the engine needs set quite deep in the test tank before it would prime.

wellhouse · 14 August 2017, 07:35

The 150hpdi is a great engine but water peeing from the pee hole is not it's strong point when flushing from muffs. I had one and was told by yamaha that the engine should be flushed with cavitation plate completely submerged. I found that about an inch or 2 above was about right. The pump takes more than a hose can supply on muffs. There are a few other things to look out for. You should get water from the pee hole when flushing from the flushing attachment but it doesn't flush the whole engine. The regulator on these is water cooled and the pee hole is supplied via this. If the engine is not religiously flushed on the flush point then over time the regulator water channels can get blocked/restricted. I used to get a bit of strimmer cable and wiggle this up the pee hole whilst flushing to make sure this doesn't happen. It went in about 14inches or so before it bottoms out in the regulator. If you follow the small pipe from the pee hole you will see it goes up behind the fuse panel, that is where the regulator is positioned. From that you can work out how long your strimmer cable needs to be. (regulator is about 3 inches long so allow for this, the cable should go right into it but because of the design of the water channels it will not go right through it). From there there is the same size pipe as the pee pipe and you will find it goes from the regulator down the back of the engine below the ecm. This is where the poppet valve is located. The poppet valve is another item on these that can be problematic. They can get stuck leading to a weak or no pee. There a design update. They were originally a kind of shuttle slide valve inside a rubber bush tensioned by a spring on the poppet valve cover backplate. Over time the poppet valve can stick in this rubber bush due to salt/scale build up. The new poppet valve is a dome which pushes against this rubber bush and is therefore less likely to stick. Be warned, it is a fiddly job to do due to it's location but i did mine for peace of mind. On these no water from the pee does not mean the engine is not being completely cooled but it is reassuring to see water coming from that location! Normally takes a few minutes after start up to see water from the pee hole due to the volume of the engine water ways. Next up is the thermostats and powerhead water channels. Thermostats easy to check and once removed give a good indication of what the condition of the inside of the powerheads is likely to be. If looking grotty, then running in engine flushing solution for a while will help but you need a lot to fill a tank unless you have a club that has a tank set up. If you get a good pee on the move that is more important but all the other points mentioned will help. Other points to check are the rubber seal in the water pump cover, this can get dislocated during refitting if not careful and the small rubber hose on top of the water pump cover that connects to the cooling water pick up tube which can get split/worn out over time and lastly look for blockages in the water pick up tube (less likely but possible if the impeller has ever broken up) Good luck. (if you need the right size strimmer cable send me a pm, i have loads left over)

simonl · 14 August 2017, 08:14

Great post Wellhouse - thanks.
Mine runs fine on muffs, but I have a good hose setup with 'stereo' muffs.
I get a bit twitchy if I don't see mine peeing within 20 secs. Not sure it's ever taken longer than that, generally much quicker. Agree that it need to be sat a bit deeper than you'd expect when in a tank.

Chanchan168 · 14 August 2017, 22:14

Brilliant post Wellhouse. Thanks.

I had a fairly good tell tale on the stereo muffs so was slightly taken aback when I had nothing from the bongo

Water was turbulent so did consider it wasn't deep enough. Ordered a water pump kit and new thermostats just to be sure though and it will also means I'm starting from fresh. I've heard before that the poppet is a bit of a pig to get to, So I'll leave that till last

Gonna try the strimmer cable first.

Thanks again for your knowledge. Gratefullly appreciated

jonp · 15 August 2017, 00:40

I only ever use muffs to flush and have never had any issues with them not pumping water through the tale pipe instantly ( Suzuki 4strokes included ) .

I was on a mates boat where we hit a muddy bottom that stopped the water pumping through the tell tale pipe but luckily the impellor was fine and a piece of thick 100lb mono fishing line poked down the tell tale cleared the blockage. I've since unblocked a few outboards at my local ramp using just heavy fishing line, hope yours is that simple.

wellhouse · 15 August 2017, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanchan168

Brilliant post Wellhouse. Thanks.

I had a fairly good tell tale on the stereo muffs so was slightly taken aback when I had nothing from the bongo

Water was turbulent so did consider it wasn't deep enough. Ordered a water pump kit and new thermostats just to be sure though and it will also means I'm starting from fresh. I've heard before that the poppet is a bit of a pig to get to, So I'll leave that till last

Gonna try the strimmer cable first.

Thanks again for your knowledge. Gratefullly appreciated

no problem, the tell tale pipe routing plus the regulator in line leaves plenty of low points for scale and salt to build up on these so that section gets blocked quite easily with salt. With the engine tilted up it all gathers in the regulator section as it has no low point to drain to - great design! You must have good water pressure at your place if you get a good flow on muffs on tickover, you'll notice that yamaha angled the water intakes on the front leading edge plus there is a secondary lead to the water pump pickup area to help divert water to the pump, even whilst on the move, as the pickup is set quite far back on the lower unit and the area behind the plastic covers is pretty small for the amount of water that needs to go through it. The plastic cover plate moulding also has very small holes which doesn't help (these can also partially block with salt when the engine is out of the water if not well flushed) later designs have slightly larger slotted holes to get water into the pickup area. Taking those plastic plates off and putting them in some descaling solution occasionally helps.

Chanchan168 · 15 August 2017, 19:46

Just out of interest, I tried again today on the muffs and although the tell tale is visible, it's not brilliant.

It's the first time I've tried to run her up since buying her, and I've changed all of the filters, including the vst. She started fine again, but trying to rev her up, she sounded like it was choking for a while until it cleared.

Revved ok, but then the high temp alarm kicked in. I presume that means that it's well blocked or thermo gone or / and water pump or impeller

Nice again, thanks for your help. It's great to have people on here with good knowledge and not shy in sharing it.

jonp · 15 August 2017, 23:22

I've used this on my outboards, boats and trailers for about the last 10 years. Washes away all signs of any salt from everything.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv88tbQGCwU

simonl · 16 August 2017, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanchan168

Just out of interest, I tried again today on the muffs and although the tell tale is visible, it's not brilliant.

It's the first time I've tried to run her up since buying her, and I've changed all of the filters, including the vst. She started fine again, but trying to rev her up, she sounded like it was choking for a while until it cleared.

Revved ok, but then the high temp alarm kicked in. I presume that means that it's well blocked or thermo gone or / and water pump or impeller

My understanding is that the neutral revving is nobbled to prevent over revving, running on 3 cyl or similar. It always sounds lousy.

Try it in gear with care. You might want to remove the prop; I don't bother, but I am careful about increasing & decreasing the revs fairly gently. It should wake the dead with none of the missing.

I don't pretend to understand the cooling system, but I use a cheapo infrared non-contact thermometer (£20 ish) to keep a careful eye on the engine - typically the cylinder heads looking for even temperatures, peaking at ?65 deg C possibly, can't really remember. I do feed it with 4 bar on a 25mm hose with stereo muffs & Geka connectors. Not a Hozelock conenctor to be seen.

The best way though is to get it to a quiet slipway (with no rocks, loose concrete etc) and try to push the car up the slip using the boat. It's a great way of picking up any HT or other issues that tend to appear under max load. You can monitor the pee pipe & the temperature etc, all from a stable platform. Just make sure there's nobody approaching from behind in a 8ft tender!

I think you're probably chasing a non-existent problem though.

wellhouse · 16 August 2017, 07:32

They do rev in neutral using the small lever next to the throttle lever. They run on 4 cylinders upto 2000rpm then 6. You don't say whether the alarm is solid or intermittent but it could mean high temp, low oil/no oil or water in fuel filter, if you have the later type bowl on the engine fuel filter assembly, depending on what the alarm is doing.

jonp · 16 August 2017, 08:39

You should not over rev an outboard on muffs or you could end up doing damage due to lack of back pressure.

Chanchan168 · 18 August 2017, 11:02

Thanks everyone, appreciated your knowledge and advice

mhb100 · 18 August 2017, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanchan168

Thanks everyone, appreciated your knowledge and advice

On hpdi if you rev in neutral it drops to only 2 of the 6 cylinders. 4 run in neutral. Mine has always been hard to get tell tale on muffs so I moved to a large tank and still need about about 3inch of water above the intakes. When I bought I really struggled and thought it was blocked. stripped it all down, new complete pump, full flush through, clean poppet valve etc and made no difference! So if I want to run it upto temp I use an old gardeners galvanized tank that works like a dream.

Id always drop the leg and check impeller start and end of season anyway its just not worth the risk not too and costs virtually nothing.

mhb100 · 18 August 2017, 23:20

I'm a few years ahead of you having spent the last years solely getting used to hpdi. If you have questions pm me. Recommend getting YTS and can probably pick up cheap copy from USA ebay. I have manuals including full workshop/service one, it's for a larger model but much is the same principles.

simonl · 19 August 2017, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhb100

I'm a few years ahead of you having spent the last years solely getting used to hpdi. If you have questions pm me. Recommend getting YTS and can probably pick up cheap copy from USA ebay. I have manuals including full workshop/service one, it's for a larger model but much is the same principles.

I'm guessing you means YDS? Or have you got someone form the YTS scheme to monitor your engine?! Last time I looked, a few years ago, it was $hundreds. There's now a Russian seller (where else?!) offering it for £24 for just the software or £48 with the cable included. Thank you for prompting me to look again.

Would you mind posting details of what functionality you get using it on an HPDI? Conscious that this is slightly hijacking the OP's thread, but I think he probably needs this info more than me.