Red diesel decision time!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Here's a post I made last year about tank dipping. I've been stopped and dipped three times this year. Once near Redditch and twice on the A55 on Anglesey.

Wonder what the legal situation is on nicking people's vehicles - what happens if they are owned by a company - or are on finance - or are hired or leased? In all those cases the person driving who put the fuel in is NOT the legal owner.

[ADS]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Wonder what the legal situation is on nicking people's vehicles - what happens if they are owned by a company - or are on finance - or are hired or leased? In all those cases the person driving who put the fuel in is NOT the legal owner.

Good point Cod, but in the case of company cars the fuel is paid for by the company for business mileage usually so its owner isn't going to bother trying to save money by using red because he/she isn't paying for the fuel. Unless they ran it on red and then claimed it back from their employer at full price

Alex

[Nate]

Seizure of vehicles used in the commission of crimes is well established in UK law. Who owns it is immaterial.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Wonder what the legal situation is on nicking people's vehicles - what happens if they are owned by a company - or are on finance - or are hired or leased? In all those cases the person driving who put the fuel in is NOT the legal owner.

On a First offence they return the vehicle after the relevent fines have been paid. Second offence you wave it goodbye. You then owe the finance/lease company if that's the case. It's like having a big loan on a car and 3rd party insurance. Write it off and keep paying with no car.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Nate

Seizure of vehicles used in the commission of crimes is well established in UK law. Who owns it is immaterial.

I wouldn't have thought so - are you saying that if someone nicks a bus and uses it in a crime the bus company will have the bus siezed?

Or that Avis will lose a car they have hired to someone who then commits a crime with it?

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Here's a post I made last year about tank dipping. I've been stopped and dipped three times this year. Once near Redditch and twice on the A55 on Anglesey.

Can you blame them. you're at best a dodgy looking geeza! They probably saw promotion when you came trundling past ( well all right then.... not quite past!)

On a less flippant note how much was the fine! AW sorry only joshing

Seriously though folks , if there was no duty benefit from using diesel over petrol, would anybody choose a diesel engine.....I think I might for the right boat!

[Nate]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I wouldn't have thought so - are you saying that if someone nicks a bus and uses it in a crime the bus company will have the bus siezed?

Or that Avis will lose a car they have hired to someone who then commits a crime with it?

If someone nicks a bus then the crime is vehicle theft and the bus was not used in the commission of the theft, but was the object of the theft.

Seizure of a vehicle (in C&E and insurance type offences where seizure is generally used) allows the police to hold the vehicle until the fines etc. are paid in full.

Just look up Criminal Justice Act in Google before you go off on one.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Nate

If someone nicks a bus then the crime is vehicle theft and the bus was not used in the commission of the theft, but was the object of the theft.

Seizure of a vehicle (in C&E and insurance type offences where seizure is generally used) allows the police to hold the vehicle until the fines etc. are paid in full.

Just look up Criminal Justice Act in Google before you go off on one.

It all comes down to the legal title - if a person hires a vehicle it is still the legal property of the hire company. Also if it is on HP ore other finance the property belongs to the finance company.

[Nick Thompson]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Or that Avis will lose a car they have hired to someone who then commits a crime with it?

I would guess hire contracts are similar the world over.

I know that in the US as far as Avis are concerned, they consider they have sold the car to the hirer who had it seized if it is not returned at the end of the hire period.

Exactly the same as if the car is written off while an un-authorised driver was driving.

[jwalker]

When we went over to Irvine boat jumble with the Jackeens, the C&E were there dipping a car tank. It was a normal vehicle and not agricultural or a 4x4.

Just though you might like to know, Cod.

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by codprawn

It all comes down to the legal title - if a person hires a vehicle it is still the legal property of the hire company. Also if it is on HP ore other finance the property belongs to the finance company.

It doesnt matter who owns the vehicle, say you have a car on HP and you run it on red, you get pulled, first time fine, second time car taken off you. You will then get an investigation into your mileage and asked to provide reciepts or proof that you have bought white. It is them calculated how much you "owe" in unpaid duty. You then get the option of paying their calculations or you loose the vehicle and may get fined. The HP company/bank/hirer still wants their money due.
It is the same now if you run lorries with-out an operators licence, the truck is impounded, regardless of who owns it and it is very difficlut to recover it.

It get worse if its a company owned motor as they will check every vehicle in the company.
Here it is common now for the Customs men to be pulling and checking cars and also visiting Building sites to dip vehicles for red.

Andy

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Apart from the coloured markers are they still using Quinizarin and Coumarin? Apparently the UK wanted to retain these are they are harder to remove than just coloured dyes.

As far as I know in the UK Quinizarin (1,4-dihydroxyanthraquinone) is still routinely added to Red Diesel at > 1.75ppm, as well as CO Solvent Red 24 and Yellow 124. It is "invisible" to the naked eye but can be detected by fluorescence spectroscopy. 4-(N-ethyl-2-(1-isobutoxyethoxy)ethylamino)azobenzene can also be used (at > 5ppm)but isn't routinely added.

Coumarin (1,2-Benzopyrone) is added to Kerosene at > 2ppm. Again this requires spectroscopy to detect it.

Fluorescense spectrometers are relatively cheap and can be designed so they are easy to use so it is reasonable to assume that this is part of the roadside testing equipment.

I'm not sure they really are harder to remove - its more that for a small scale user (such as an individual farmer etc) its not possible for them to do it easily. For a large laundering plant its not that hard to mask/remove it.

The hardest thing to hide is that Red Diesel typically contains much higher sulfur content than road diesel - but there is no easy road side test - yet!

Originally Posted by codprawn

Also I wonder if they ban you from using Red diesel in boats will you still be able to use Kerosene?

I think it is probably already illegal to use Kerosense in a boat. Kerosene has an even lower level of tax than red diesel.

In any case I think you can safely assume that the revenue will have that covered if they change the regs, and it will become illegal to opperate a diesel engined boat in the UK unless it has full duty paid on the fuel. This is the current situation with road vehicles.

[jackcastoff]

Black and white here

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsP...yType=document

I havent heard of anyone having their vehicle siezed providing they politely cough up the on the spot fine!

Biodiesel is available from some suppliers not tinted at the rebated price of approx 40 p litre.

I have run my car on cooking oil before, infact we took part in a test and did it for some time. Cooking vegetable oil is available for approx 40 p litre and can be run quite safely in most engines with a small amount of diesel say 30 % to thin it. It does look odd buying 50 lires in your local tesco though.

I think its fun looking at alternative fuel options , and is the only way forward. You can save tax legally by self declaring and more importantly save the planet!

Infact its strange sometime all the whinging going on when there are so many cheaper fuels out there......

[Charles]

An interesting read!

[Scary Des]

If caught with red Derv in the tank of your car the revenue calculate the duty owed by doing an average MPG against recorded mileage. There is no legal requirement to record the mileage in a boat so how are the revenue doing to come up with a fine
Especially if you consider that some boat are only used once or twice a year while others are used daily Des

[Andy Gee]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

If caught with red Derv in the tank of your car the revenue calculate the duty owed by doing an average MPG against recorded mileage. There is no legal requirement to record the mileage in a boat so how are the revenue doing to come up with a fine
Especially if you consider that some boat are only used once or twice a year while others are used daily Des

Hour Meter x Manufactures Figures ?

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Andy Gee

Hour Meter x Manufactures Figures ?

Yeh but unlike a car, the hour meter is not covered by any standards or legal requirement(there is no legal req. to have one), so if you were caught the revenue would have to prove you had used X amount of fuel without any facts, such as mileage, to go on.

To defend yourself you need only say that it was the first time you had used the boat since the change in the law and they would be hard pushed to prove otherwise. So I am confused as to how the revenue could enforce this legislation Des

[Nick Thompson]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

the revenue would have to prove you had used X amount of fuel without any facts, such as mileage, to go on.

I think you will find that the the revenue will come up with a figure & you have to dis-prove it.

Welcome to Brairs' Britian.

Regards

[Mollers]

[QUOTE=Nick Thompson]


Welcome to Brairs' Britian.


Where the hell is it?!!


Duckin' Fyxlexia is such a pian in the asre!

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by Nick Thompson

I think you will find that the the revenue will come up with a figure & you have to dis-prove it.

Welcome to Brairs' Britian.

Regards

Maybe, but they usually try to come up with a figure based on something. With a car it is all the mileage you’ve done since you bought it. But they can’t do this with a boat, and as draconian as this government is I really don’t know how they can enforce this change at a user level.
The only way they will be able to control use of red derv. will be at a distribution level and that is already quite open to abuse Des