Red diesel decision time!

ashbypower · 25 November 2005, 13:04

Decision on this emotive subject soon http://www.ybw.co.uk/auto/newsdesk/2...56mbmnews.html

Brian

hard1 · 25 November 2005, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Decision on this emotive subject soon http://www.ybw.co.uk/auto/newsdesk/2...56mbmnews.html

Brian

So anyone "commercial" would still have access to the cheaper red diesel if the decision went against "leisureboaters" (as I think it might well do). I wonder what their definition of "commercial" would be? Right now, people rock up in vans and pick-ups in the local marina and fill heaps of jerrycans - where it goes, nobody knows.

Rogue Wave · 25 November 2005, 17:18

one is glad one does the occasional stind on a smelly old tugboat!

Roy Smith · 25 November 2005, 17:54

going to need a lot of jerry cans for 50ft sunseeker
I wounder what will happen to their second hand vaule

codprawn · 25 November 2005, 18:16

We should do the same as any other country who doesn't agree with an EU law - just ignore it. Of course there are far too many jobsworths in this country for that to happen!!!

I remember a few years ago Blair announced that is was unfair Britain stuck to the EU laws but other countries didn't bother - he said he would instruct officials to relax the letter of the law here as well. The following week it was announced that the UK was launching a satellite to monitor British farmer's crops!!!

LURCHER · 25 November 2005, 18:50

Does anyone know if the red question will prohibit us from using red or just from buying it from a marina? I have just bought 1000 ltr @ £0.31 lt . i use it to run our marquee heaters . If I run a red deisel boat next year what is to stop me taking it from home in jerry cans? I would be happy to sell to anyone who wants it too.

Mollers · 25 November 2005, 22:28

It's the smaller diesel boats that will be knocked around in terms of value. The bigger 40ft+ cruisers would always be preferable with diesels regardless of fuel cost. But, the smaller 18-30ft range will be hit. lb for lb a 260hp 5.7ltr Merc weighs about the same as a 175hp KAD 42 Diesel Volvo. Fuel consumption is similar. Bit of a no-brainer really.

Mollers · 25 November 2005, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LURCHER

Does anyone know if the red question will prohibit us from using red or just from buying it from a marina? I have just bought 1000 ltr @ £0.31 lt . i use it to run our marquee heaters . If I run a red deisel boat next year what is to stop me taking it from home in jerry cans? I would be happy to sell to anyone who wants it too.

It'll be using it. It's gonna be bloody hard tp police though. Anyone ever had their diesel car dipped? I haven't.

codprawn · 25 November 2005, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

It'll be using it. It's gonna be bloody hard tp police though. Anyone ever had their diesel car dipped? I haven't.

It is pretty difficult to tell a diesel car from a petrol one these days and there are just too many on the roads - getting a handfull of boaters as they come into a lock is a different matter though!!!

Having said that more room to hide tanks on a boat - criminal? Yes and so are their bloody taxes!!!

Nate · 26 November 2005, 08:55

Getting dipped for red diesel is more likely in some places than others. Don't forget this is a revenue offence, and those boys are keen to say the least. At the moment it seems that farmers are an obvious choice for dipping so down here livestock markets and shows tend to attract revenue roadblocks. If a keen revenue ranger got wind that an offence was likely among the boat brigade they'd lose little time coming to have a look. Let's not forget that confiscation of the vehicle, back duty and a huge fine currently accompany prosecution for road vehicles - probably going to be similar for boats. Those committed to using red diesel might well consider fitting an extra fuel tank in an unlikely place, and having a way of switching between the two. Discoloration of fuel lines etc. could well be argued to have taken place before red diesel was made illegal.

Andy Gee · 26 November 2005, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Those committed to using red diesel might well consider fitting an extra fuel tank in an unlikely place, and having a way of switching between the two. Discoloration of fuel lines etc. could well be argued to have taken place before red diesel was made illegal.

Dosent work when they take the filter drain out

Andy

Mollers · 26 November 2005, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate

Getting dipped for red diesel is more likely in some places than others. Don't forget this is a revenue offence, and those boys are keen to say the least. At the moment it seems that farmers are an obvious choice for dipping so down here livestock markets and shows tend to attract revenue roadblocks. If a keen revenue ranger got wind that an offence was likely among the boat brigade they'd lose little time coming to have a look. Let's not forget that confiscation of the vehicle, back duty and a huge fine currently accompany prosecution for road vehicles - probably going to be similar for boats. Those committed to using red diesel might well consider fitting an extra fuel tank in an unlikely place, and having a way of switching between the two. Discoloration of fuel lines etc. could well be argued to have taken place before red diesel was made illegal.

All that stuff about staining and being traceable for months is not true. Once the red has been run through and the filter changed it's gone. I know some 4x4 guys that run 6ltr GM diesels in Landies that make it their mission to use red and not get caught. We are having more and more road spot checks where the ministry man in his white coat is present. Kerosene is another favourite, that is now yellow but knackers performance. So I've heard

Mollers · 26 November 2005, 11:54

Some truckstop filling stations have Gasoil and Derv next to each other. The Gasoil is for fridges. Genuine mistakes have been made where the drivers have filled the lorries with red. Not a bad excuse if caught uing it.

Kernow Buoy · 26 November 2005, 13:45

Changing red diesel to white diesel visually is fairly straight forward, what you can't remove is the chemical trace that defines white from red.

mdt · 26 November 2005, 14:08

And how do you perform this “straight forward” operation… he asks with no interest at all other than form a desire to expand ones knowledge base. Honesty

And if you where to get your, lets say for discussions sake car tank “dipped” and they found it to be clear why would they then test it for the trace chemicals??

Or is this test a east road side test ??

Kernow Buoy · 26 November 2005, 14:15

You'd possibly be asked when you last topped up and if you had the receipt for it etc. If they thought all was well you probably wouldn't get tested as well, it is a simple roadside test that takes seconds.

Poly · 26 November 2005, 15:33

USING RED DIESEL IN A CAR IS ILLEGAL AND CARRIES HEAVY PENALTIES. IN THE EVENT THAT IT BECOMES ILLEGAL TO USE RED DIESEL IN BOATS THIS IS ALSO LIKELY TO HAVE HEAVY PENALTIES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdt

And how do you perform this “straight forward” operation… he asks with no interest at all other than form a desire to expand ones knowledge base. Honesty

And if you where to get your, lets say for discussions sake car tank “dipped” and they found it to be clear why would they then test it for the trace chemicals??

Or is this test a east road side test ??

The red dye is an dis-azo dye called CI solvent Red 24 (in the UK). Typically there is < 10 ppm present in neat red diesel. 6 ppm of closely related yellow dye (CI solvent yellow 124 is also added throughout the EU to reduced tax fuels). Other colours are used too e.g. blue for french marine diesel.

It is difficult (and therfore expensive) to remove the dye from the fuel (without damaging the fuel as described below) - but it is possible to mask it by adding (laundering) other dyes so that the colour changes (you would presumably add some yellow and blue dyes to produce a "neutral colour) or to "dilute" it with duty paid fuel so that the colour is no longer apparent to the eye. Apparently organised criminals in northern ireland are especially good at this.

The yellow dye (124) is not visible to the naked eye at these concentrations anyway. BUT there is an extreemly simple way to detect even very low concentrations of 124 at the road side. The treasury can detect as little as 2% Red Diesel mixed with Duty Paid Diesel at the roadside. In essence the way it is detected is to add a small amount of strong acid. The acid reacts with the yellow dye, turning it red. The red version of the 124 dye is also more soluble in the aqueous (acid) phase and so adding a little acid to a lot of fuel lets the revenue concentrate up the dye and get good sensitivity. It can be performed as a visual test - but automated analysers are also available.

IN THEORY it is possible to remove this dye from fuel in the same way - by washing with acid. BUT this will result in small amounts of strong acid being mixed with the fuel. It goes with out saying that acidic fuel results in significantly enhanced corrosion inside your engine. SO this is a bad idea - and if you get offered cheap diesel you should think twice - it might not just be Gordon Brown that it costs. Disposal of the chemicals also has environmental implications. It is also likely that unless you really know what you are doing you won't get all the dye out and they'll still be able to catch you.

Although roadside dipping is uncommon for cars on the mainland - if the revenue got wind of someone doing this - I am sure they would be quick enough to act. Lorries (and agricultural machinery) are regularly dipped at road side check points and in northern ireland where dodgy fuel is rife (both with people who are knowingly using it and those who paid full price whilst the garage creamed off the difference!) it is unlikely you would manage to drive a diesel car for more than a few months without being dipped (unless you are a tipped off where they are dipping ;-) ).

I hope that helps, but I hope it also convinces you that its not a good idea...

codprawn · 26 November 2005, 16:30

Apart from the coloured markers are they still using Quinizarin and Coumarin? Apparently the UK wanted to retain these are they are harder to remove than just coloured dyes.

Also I wonder if they ban you from using Red diesel in boats will you still be able to use Kerosene?

Nick Thompson · 26 November 2005, 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

It'll be using it. It's gonna be bloody hard tp police though. Anyone ever had their diesel car dipped? I haven't.

When I lived in a market town in the midlands, it wasn't unusual for HMCE to have diesel dipper vans on all the access roads into town on market day.

Word got around & they more or less closed the market on those days.

DM · 26 November 2005, 17:26

Here's a post I made last year about tank dipping. I've been stopped and dipped three times this year. Once near Redditch and twice on the A55 on Anglesey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmanning

Just in case you're ever tempted to put a bit of red diesel in your road vehicle, this little story might put you off.

I called into my local boatyard this morning for some new truck batteries. They have a quayside red diesel pump for boats. A lot of people call in to fill fuel containers saying it's for plant/agricultural vehicles etc.

I was surrounded by four uniformed C & E men who dipped the trucks tank which fortunately was clear. I was the fifth caller to the yard. The previous four had all failed the dip test and had received on the spot £500 fines and their vehicles had been confiscated, one being a £20k+ Range Rover. They were also informed that the vehicle mileages would be recorded and the back tax calculated and charged accordingly.