Redbay gearboxes

[willk]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

I did single out redbay as an older one was the most likely candidate for a new boat and they have sold in large numbers and being an enclosed boat would be particularly suitable for the west coast of Scotland I know that humber done some larger inboard stuff but they seem a pretty rare beast and to get one with a cabin is rarer still

So now that you've confirmed that you WERE singling out Redbay (but only because you had your heart set on one) we can break it down a bit (forgive the pun).

First up - they weren't sold in large numbers. The company is likely just around hull #1000 and they've been building since 1977, so relatively few mid-size cabin diesel boats. A 10yo example in average condition will set you back £30k. Clearly someone still values them!

Then again - maybe of someone were to use a popular forum to bad-mouth Redbay's reckless policy of fitting Yamaha, Yanmar and Volvo inboards, the price might plummet and they'd get a bargain!

[beamishken]

If your looking at older boats of the yamaha sti & yanmar 6lp era then although they both have problems why did so many rib builders install them?
The simple answer is they were the best available for the purpose at the time. The only alternative was Volvo & mercruiser, volvo were significantly heavier & used electronics that meant repair by none dealers is extremely hard mercruiser were easier to repair than volvo and had similar weight to yanmar and yam but had a reputation for unreliability.
Many of these old installations are still running & being maintained by competent owners without the need for expensive dealer computers.
I have 2 6lps with bravo drives in my hard boat & keeping the engines and drives running doesn't concern me in the slightest. What does concern me is what would I replace the boat & more specifically the engines with? There isn't anything on the market now that isn't computer controlled & has you locked into the dealers.
Being locked into the dealer network maybe fine if your on the south coast where dealers are like fleas on a dogs back but not so good when your in a more remote area which is typically where ribs operate.
Now yamaha have exited the inboard market the choice of sterndrives is extremely limited but again it seems to be yanmar the rib builders prefer. Maybe because yanmar are less aggressive about locking customers into the dealer network. Replacing simple things on Modern Volvos require dealer programming where yanmar supply similar items pre programmed.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by Poly

Sounds a much more likely cause of your symptoms than “dodgy fuel”...

Multi-tasking failure possibly.

[breezeblock]

Originally Posted by beamishken

If your looking at older boats of the yamaha sti & yanmar 6lp era then although they both have problems why did so many rib builders install them?
The simple answer is they were the best available for the purpose at the time. The only alternative was Volvo & mercruiser, volvo were significantly heavier & used electronics that meant repair by none dealers is extremely hard mercruiser were easier to repair than volvo and had similar weight to yanmar and yam but had a reputation for unreliability.
Many of these old installations are still running & being maintained by competent owners without the need for expensive dealer computers.
I have 2 6lps with bravo drives in my hard boat & keeping the engines and drives running doesn't concern me in the slightest. What does concern me is what would I replace the boat & more specifically the engines with? There isn't anything on the market now that isn't computer controlled & has you locked into the dealers.
Being locked into the dealer network maybe fine if your on the south coast where dealers are like fleas on a dogs back but not so good when your in a more remote area which is typically where ribs operate.
Now yamaha have exited the inboard market the choice of sterndrives is extremely limited but again it seems to be yanmar the rib builders prefer. Maybe because yanmar are less aggressive about locking customers into the dealer network. Replacing simple things on Modern Volvos require dealer programming where yanmar supply similar items pre programmed.

ive done repairs on Volvo penta stuff and as you state require dealer programming its great if your on the south coast but Oban is pretty sparse when it comes to getting a dealer to fix stuff an older mechanical injection engine and a bomb proof gearbox would be the ideal solution at the last check when I was doing the repairs a knocked off Chinese copy of vodia on a pda was around 2k and I wasn't willing to pay for it

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

ive done repairs on Volvo penta stuff and as you state require dealer programming its great if your on the south coast but Oban is pretty sparse when it comes to getting a dealer to fix stuff an older mechanical injection engine and a bomb proof gearbox would be the ideal solution at the last check when I was doing the repairs a knocked off Chinese copy of vodia on a pda was around 2k and I wasn't willing to pay for it

So your ruling out volvo powered boats, yanmar and Yamaha powered boats & there are very few mercruiser powered boats so it sounds like you realy dont want a diesel powered boat at all?
So its not a redbay thing at all then is it?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by GuyC

Multi-tasking failure possibly.

Ach, wrong thread... but bizarrely I am sure I was in the right thread. I’d move it but the app isn’t playing ball!

[breezeblock]

No just pointing out that an older mechanical engineer would be better suited as the software is expensive/unobtainable at a reasonable cost is there any manufacturer that does make a stern drive that you don’t need to nurse through it’s short lifespan

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

is there any manufacturer that does make a stern drive that you don’t need to nurse through it’s short lifespan

Konrad possibly but they (sensibly) separate out the gearbox from the stern drive

[Dan Gurney]

Originally Posted by willk

The company is likely just around hull #1000 and they've been building since 1977, so relatively few mid-size cabin diesel boats. A 10yo example in average condition will set you back £30k.

Not an 11m though surely?

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

No just pointing out that an older mechanical engineer would be better suited as the software is expensive/unobtainable at a reasonable cost is there any manufacturer that does make a stern drive that you don’t need to nurse through it’s short lifespan

Simple answer is NO!
sterndrives are high maintenance and if your paying for genuine new parts & labour they are ALL eyewateringly expensive to maintain.
Only thing with volvo they went all electronic much sooner than the rest so you get shafted twice, once for the mechanical bits then again for the electronic gremlins.
Even annual servicing will cost you the price of a reasonable used car every year.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

No just pointing out that an older mechanical engineer would be better suited as the software is expensive/unobtainable at a reasonable cost is there any manufacturer that does make a stern drive that you don’t need to nurse through it’s short lifespan

Well, that depends. You strike me as a reasonably good diy person so with thought you could put together a fairly reliable package. Just to negate the doom sayers, I've actually forgotten when I commissioned my boat but around 2004ish, I've never needed Volvo engineers nor broken the engine or drive. Perhaps newer engines are different but I still reckon, with thought, you could build a reasonable package.

With regard to sterndrives, many of the early failures, and perhaps failures generally, were/are caused by pushing a drive above what it could sensibly handle or sustain. If you choose a good drive typically capable of, say, 350hp and drive it with a max engine of 250hp you've got every chance of it being completely sound. Whereas, if you push it to the limit constantly you're asking for trouble. Similarly with the engine, if you run it way above its rating for long periods you'll likely get troubles.
A bit of mechanical empathy will see you well IMHO.

[Brian]

Well I ran a Sorpion 8.75 for 9 years with Yamaha engine and leg, with absolutely no problems whatsoever.
This included many long-ish trips round Ireland, and to the northern isles of the Hebrides. Not a lot of wear and tear, about 100hours per year.
The engine was serviced once every 2 or 3 years but every time they took the leg off they declared it was just like new-so they put it back on and I continued to drive with no problems.

[breezeblock]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Well, that depends. You strike me as a reasonably good diy person so with thought you could put together a fairly reliable package. Just to negate the doom sayers, I've actually forgotten when I commissioned my boat but around 2004ish, I've never needed Volvo engineers nor broken the engine or drive. Perhaps newer engines are different but I still reckon, with thought, you could build a reasonable package.

With regard to sterndrives, many of the early failures, and perhaps failures generally, were/are caused by pushing a drive above what it could sensibly handle or sustain. If you choose a good drive typically capable of, say, 350hp and drive it with a max engine of 250hp you've got every chance of it being completely sound. Whereas, if you push it to the limit constantly you're asking for trouble. Similarly with the engine, if you run it way above its rating for long periods you'll likely get troubles.
A bit of mechanical empathy will see you well IMHO.

I think your kad engine is the first of the electronic engines that Volvo done I actually quite liked them as an engine was this the one with the staged turbo/supercharger setup

[beamishken]

Maybe I was a little harsh in my earlier post & gave the impression all drives WILL fail expensively.
Of course not all do fail I've ran boats with twin drives with 300hp+ per side now for 15 years and never had a major drive failure.
However I'm very conservative with the throttle & run well below max rating.
On the other hand costs are relative. If paying for annual service on 2 engines and drives you probably north of 2k on a normal year and north of 3k for the reccomend bi annual bellows change.
My drives come off every year to grease the ujs and shafts & check for water intrusion but I dont follow the recommended bellows change of every 2 years.
I think a lot of failures & especially early & multiple failures can be attributed to driver abuse, many people think "its a diesel there bullet proof" which of course there not.
6lps & 420sti are both toyota landcruiser based engines the equivalent engines when in vehicles are 130-170hp depending on application when in a boat they are 240-315hp, almost double the output
Clearly pushed to the limit. If this philosophy of pushing the engineering to its limits is applied to the drives then its no surprise there are failures.
That said a reasonably competent owner who looks after his kit and treats it gently can see long service life.

[breezeblock]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Maybe I was a little harsh in my earlier post & gave the impression all drives WILL fail expensively.
Of course not all do fail I've ran boats with twin drives with 300hp+ per side now for 15 years and never had a major drive failure.
However I'm very conservative with the throttle & run well below max rating.
On the other hand costs are relative. If paying for annual service on 2 engines and drives you probably north of 2k on a normal year and north of 3k for the reccomend bi annual bellows change.
My drives come off every year to grease the ujs and shafts & check for water intrusion but I dont follow the recommended bellows change of every 2 years.
I think a lot of failures & especially early & multiple failures can be attributed to driver abuse, many people think "its a diesel there bullet proof" which of course there not.
6lps & 420sti are both toyota landcruiser based engines the equivalent engines when in vehicles are 130-170hp depending on application when in a boat they are 240-315hp, almost double the output
Clearly pushed to the limit. If this philosophy of pushing the engineering to its limits is applied to the drives then its no surprise there are failures.
That said a reasonably competent owner who looks after his kit and treats it gently can see long service life.

is most of this labour as I would be doing repairs servicing myself

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

is most of this labour as I would be doing repairs servicing myself

Yes, I think it must be. The engine just needs oil/filter changes, water pump impeller changes, possibly valve clearances set and a general look-see.

The drive lives under water so all rubbers need checking, oil needs changing and keep an eye on rams and corrosion. Drives differ so slightly different requirements for different makes but generally common sense servicing.. Removing a drive is a pest but not difficult. Mine has been off once in its life to replace a couple of nylon pivot bushes. The bellows was changed since I was in there but it looked as good as new, I absolutely lather the u/j's, their splines and inner parts around the gearbox with moly cv grease so I don't worry about them.

I must add though, my boat doesn't live full time on the water so it doesn't suffer the corrosion or sea life growth. The rubber bellows around the u/j is easily checked too while its on the trailer. It also has an active mercruiser electronic corrosion protection system for all the time it is in the water.

Servicing costs for me are very small, just the cost of the parts I've mentioned.

Everything on the engine is reasonably easily accessible so I don't have any access issues as some inboard engines do.

I'll pretty much go along with Ken's second post re over running engines and parts, he's obviously had a decent sleep last night.....

[GuyC]

Are the service manuals available i.e. how to do it rather than what needs to be done? I would hope so but it is worth a check.

[beamishken]

There is a big labour content but add in cost of gear oil which is expensive impeller, drive mounting seal kit, 10 ish ltrs engine oil plus filter, fuel filter & pre filter set of anodes then bellows every 2nd year (if you follow manufacturers recommended interval) strip & clean of intercooler every 4 years or so

I remove my drives every year just to check for water ingress into the bellows & grease the ujs

A uj failure wont just leave you stranded it has a high chance to leave you sinking as the uj destroys the transom shield & tears the bellows.

Yamaha sti packages are probably the better drive having less turbo lag & better gearshift.
However I'd be looking for a 6lp package with bravo drive purely because you will still get parts for a long time to come whereas some yamaha parts are already getting difficult to find & drives are fairly complicated compared to a fairly simple Bravo drive

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by beamishken

A uj failure wont just leave you stranded it has a high chance to leave you sinking as the uj destroys the transom shield & tears the bellows.

That's interesting. My elderly SternPowr has an intermediate housing that the driveshaft from the sterndrive goes into. It is this that creates the watertight seal. The bellows does protect the UJ but it has been separated from the watertight integrity aspect.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Dan Gurney

Not an 11m though surely?

By mid-sized I was meaning 8.4m or thereabouts. I guess the 11m boats ARE midsized now, what with the 13m and 16m boats.

They grow up so fast.... *sighs*