Suzuki DF20AES - prop size

[seadogdave]

I know, it drives me nuts too. "If it isn't broke don't fix it" holds a lot of water where some parts are concerned and I just know he'll chip paint taking the leg apart, thereby introducing a new latent problem. If it had done 150+ hrs or so I could see past it, but at 18 it's simply stupidity.

They then wonder why people don't want to use them. I'd love to be able to service it myself. I'd also love to watch it being done to see that it was all done properly. I shall be putting some witness marks on things to prove it and will take the matter up with Suzuki if it is not right.

BTW I contacted the 3rd service centre again at noon. No record of my call yesterday in their book. "I'll go get that information for you now sir. What number shall I call you back on?" 2 1/2 hrs later still waiting. Just really poor.

Drives me nuts.

[seadogdave]

I just had a very refreshing conversation with a dealer in Plymouth who seemed open and transparent about the servicing. He said that Suzuki will have made changes to their service schedule since the user manual was printed and it does now in fact say to open the water pump and inspect the impellar after 1 year. So despite the low hours it is on the schedule to inspect, but not replace. Unlikely to be worn, but there is a possibility of rubber fracture as rubber ages. Likewise with the plugs he said that unused engines are more prone to the plug porcelain absorbing moisture as they rarely get heated and thus baked out. For that reason he would recommend changing them for the sake of their value despite the low mileage. Both sound reasonable responses. He is going to refer to the manual and give me a full list of 1 year service items and a cost. So it may well be a trip to Plymouth where my daughter is in uni to get it serviced on a Saturday morning with a boating outing in the afternoon. I'll post the service details once I get them. Shame we cannot get the updates too eh!

[jeffstevens763@g]

Well Ive heard some crap in my time but some of these dealers take the biscuit Suzuki issue a manual with each engine stating what's to be changed looked at etc throughout the warranty period. Water absorption / rubber failure bo---- Ks at low hours their taking the p--s and need reporting to Suzuki because that sort of thing will certantly affect engine sales if buyers aren't getting good after sales service. I took my book with me to make sure and stood with it whilst it was done but to be fair ribquest were spot on and I will return.

Cheers

[seadogdave]

OK so I have the service estimate. Before I go on lets just consider that part of the estimate is for a service Kit. All the service kits I have seen include plugs and impeller so you have to ask why put parts in the kit if they are not going to be used in accordance with the schedule? Note I said it is an estimate and not a quote. Why is it an estimate? Perhaps if they don't use some of the parts they reduce the cost of the service kit proportionately and stock the parts as spares? Yeah Right.

I note that the list doesn't include checking valve clearances which is definitely in the 20 hr service schedule - unless it's since been removed?

It lost some formatting when I pasted it in from a pdf but I tidied it up a bit. See below

Job Description:

Carry out annual service on DF20A engine as per Suzuki maintenance schedule:

(This includes 20hr or 1 month, 100 hour or 12 month and 200 hour or 12 month service)

o Remove and inspect spark plugs, replace if required

o Replace engine oil

o Change engine oil filter

o Grease all points

o Remove and inspect all internal anodes, change if required

o Remove and inspect all external anodes, change if required

o Check low pressure fuel filter and replace if required

o Remove impeller and inspect, refit or replace as required

o Check all nuts and bolt are correctly torqued

o Remove propeller, check nut and pin, grease splines and refit.

o Spray engine with corrosion inhibitor

o Plug is Suzuki SDS diagnostics and check hours run and fault history

Suzuki Service Kit DF20A £40.51 + £8.10

4T 10w40 Suzuki oil 1ltr £9.99 + £2.00

Gear Oil Suzuki Motul 1lt £5.50 + £1.10

Consumables and sundries £10.50 + £2.10

Labour: £72.75 + £14.55

Total £167.10

[Fenlander]

Interesting.

I was sure I asked but can't see it... is this just a 20hr or has your outboard reached 20hrs *and* is a year old so they're doing a combined 20hr/1yr

[seadogdave]

Yes they're doing a combined one. My engine was over a month old before it went in the water so to do a service at 1 month is just nuts in my view. The dealer in Plymouth agreed that this is often the case with portables and that is why he's happy to stamp the book accordingly. I think the only difference is that they will be changing the filter at 1 year as it's also the 20 hr.

It still doesn't mention valve gear check in his list though. Given that I'm effectively saving the labour cost of the 20 hr service I suppose this isn't too bad and it gets my warranty back in shape.

Thinking again about the plugs, my older motorcycle's plugs used to get rained on, washed etc and they never failed. I have a mint 1989 Ford Sierra XR4x4 that I've had from new. It does about 600 miles a year and I change the plugs about every 6 years whether they need it or not

But if they are in the kit I'm paying for it seems nuts not to change them. I think I'll ask for the "Old Ones" back though.

[willk]

Originally Posted by seadogdave

. I think I'll ask for the "Old Ones" back though.

A spot of missus dogs nail polish on the old plug is a good idea

[chipko]

Hey guys I'm getting all worried now🤔
My 20 is nearly 3 years old now, very carefully run in, been serviced with the supplying dealer in accordance with service schedule, including a combined 20hr/1st year service and all averaging out at about £125 per year. Service book all fully stamped by authorised Suzuki service centre and in accordance with service schedule, including computer print outs showing revs, hours, faults (none) etc.
To date I haven't felt the need to stand in attendance and oversee or secretly mark all the service components. Perhaps I have been somewhat naive, but my gut feeling is I have invested in a new engine from an established manufacturer with a 5 year warranty and have a fully stamped service history. God forbid if a warranty repair is ever required should I really be concerned if the valve clearance wasn't checked at the allotted time.
Never heard all this fuss with Yam, Merc/Mariner, Honda etc? Why is Suzuki so different?
Based on my experience they're great little motors, so respectfully, you guys need to stop fretting, run in your shiny new motors and have some fun.

[Fenlander]

Good god man... get out on the water when there are specs to be resolved... come on the boating will have to wait!!

I think the truth is that if all the dealers were able to do a yearly at the prices you have paid then there'd be no discussion. But when dealers are looking for 50%-100% more it does make you query... "so what are you going to do for that price".

I'm going to get my 20hr done at around 9-12hrs by June/July and this will be a test for my local dealer to see if he keeps to his guestimate offered at the time of purchase.

[seadogdave]

"Serviced in accordance with the service schedule"

Yes well there seems to be a fair few versions of that, so which did they use for you?

I'd pay £125 a year to keep the warranty valid so long as they actually did what they were meant to, but given the variance between what the book says they must do and what they say they're gonna do, I have little faith. The most crucial thing is an oil change followed by the filter. Anything else is a nice to do in my experience. £160 is a lot to pay to change a few litres of oil and a filter when the materials amount to £25 at most.

Prior to purchase I googled failures on this motor and got 0 hits. Long may it be so. I hate to be scammed, but I think that is exactly what the dealers are doing. If they all sang off the same hymn sheet you might gain a bit of confidence in them but they're all on a different page.

Dave

[chipko]

Originally Posted by seadogdave

"Serviced in accordance with the service schedule"



Yes well there seems to be a fair few versions of that, so which did they use for you?



I'd pay £125 a year to keep the warranty valid so long as they actually did what they were meant to, but given the variance between what the book says they must do and what they say they're gonna do, Dave

The dealer serviced mine in accordance with the schedule in the user manual. Parts listed on invoice and cursory visual inspection corroborate this.
Schedule in my manual is same as that posted previously by Fenlander.

[Fenlander]

Bit philosophical this but stick with it if you're intereted...

>>> I have a mint 1989 Ford Sierra XR4x4 that I've had from new. It does about 600 miles a year (SDDave said)

Interesting motor to own. Always been a car/engine guy... over 40yrs since I started tinkering and between Mrs F and self we've owned some 90 cars... some of which would now be modern classics like your Sierra.

My particular interest in this topic and why I keep knawing away at it is that I spent some 20yrs with my own small motor engineer business... I was one of the good guys who saved many people from ghastly attempts by main dealers and fast fit places to charge high prices for unnecessary work.

So I'm very wary of a servicing dealer giving glib responses to why they will do this or that differently to a schedule. Further you have to remember there are two differing aspects to this maintenance work... to preserve the warranty and to preserve the long term condition of the motor... not the same thing at all.

Not saying they would but a dealer could take your money for 5 services during the 5yr warranty period but actually not do the work properly (or at all) leaving you with a motor at risk of failing or being in poor condition at the 5+yr period... but you'd been reassured any problems were covered by warranty up to that point.

Or you could forget the warranty completely and service yourself for that period knowing the work was done correctly. In truth the chances of a warranty related failure are tiny so you would probably end up with an outboard going into its 5+yr period in excellent condition and no extra repair costs above service parts.

And if you are dealing with the places who want £165+ for each of the 5 services plus perhaps £100 extra at the 4yr service for the timing belt that's £925 compared with £120-£150 for the parts over that period if you do it all yourself. To save £775+ and know the job was properly done may well be worth the tiny risk of having a failure that would have been covered by the warranty.

At the guestimates of my dealer (£45 for the 20hr and £100 for the yearlies) I'll probably go for the dealer stamps in the book. If he ups the prices by 50% or more I may rethink and go DIY. One reason being that my dealer is in a place I don't otherwise visit and the fuel cost dropping/collecting over the 5 services will be £75 and the time used will be more than it would take me to do the services!

Note: One important point is I would not go DIY without buying the software/leads for diagnostics... a £100ish outlay but in my man maths I set special tools aside and don't directly cost them to the motor.

[chipko]

Fenlander,
Good post and as you were in the trade can see where you're coming from, very frustrating.
From a layman's point of view I need to have mine serviced to preserve the warranty and maximise secondhand values etc. Factoring in the costs I am also keen to make sure the work has been carried out as am also competent enough with spannering to do all this myself. One of the the penalties buying and running a new motor unfortunately.
On the plus side, I bought my DF20 in 2013 hot off the press when all advice was steer clear of all this new fangled technology. Light weight and EFI were the deciding benefits and three years on they still apply....the others haven't caught up yet. Best bloody 20hp I've ever had....always amazed it can pull a wakeboard quickly up onto the plane. For a 4 stroke hole shot is amazing, thanks to the EFI and engine mapping methinks.
Would be interesting to hear from the boys with big Suzuki's if they also have concerns with dealer servicing.

[seadogdave]

Agreed, special tools don't count. They always pay for themselves if you keep things long enough - as I clearly do!


When t was 10 months old my Sierra went into an RS Ford dealer for a steering rack change. It's never been in a garage since save for tyres and MOT. Long story.


The only reason I'm considering it on this motor as because in the scheme of things it's a relatively new design with no fault history and a few costly things to replace, mainly the ECU but I imagine the fuel pumps and injectors aren't cheap either.


Once 2 or 3 years have passed and google searches for DF20 problem show no hits, I think DIY kicks in for me.


I mentioned it before, but if anyone fancies setting up a group to share some special tools Id consider it. Things like flywheel pullers to facilitate the timing belt change may even be easy to fabricate rather than buy. I haven't looked into it but it looks pretty basic in the service manual. I see the biggest thing as being the break out loom to be able to measure sensors voltages without puncturing wire insulation which Is just asking for trouble in a salt water environment. I think that the diagnostic kit might be a personal piece of kit though. Something you'd want to hand immediately if you had issues. Thoughts welcome...

[Fenlander]

>>>I'm going to the muddy horses mouth tomorrow to find out for certain... Suzuki GB not my dealer as I want to be totally sure. I'll do it by mail so I have a recorded reply.

Well Suzuki have replied to my service interval query... 5wks after I asked with no apology for the delay.

They are saying the oil and filter are always changed 12 monthly but if you do over 100hrs in the 12mths the oil should have an interim change at 100hrs with the filter change not until the 12mths or 200hrs if you reach that first.

Valves they say should be checked/ajusted every 12mths or at 200hrs if this is reached first.**

So yes the schedules in the book could be read two ways and it seems Suzuki are more in line with how SDDave was reading it.

I'd not be amazed if different dealers interpret the schedule in different ways too.

Anyway one or two more trips and I'll have the 20hr initial service done early so it's ready for the many hours we'll pile on it in Scotland this summer.

**Forgive me for thinking this but having dealers ajusting valves worries me. There is quite an old fashioned skill to getting this spot on with the danger of poor performance or even serious damage if done incorrectly. It is probably the most invasive bit of modern outboard servicing and one where a feeling for mechanics is required over and above component swapping which has become the norm for modern engines.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Agree Suzuki GB s--t it took them 4weeks to agree they have a charging kit for my 25 after telling the dealer they didn't when I ordered the engine.
What I carnt understand is why the valve clearances need checking at such low hours ?

[Fenlander]

Despite the EFI system on these engines being advanced for a small outboard the valve train is old tech (compared with modern cars) so I guess needs checking for the same reason old cars needed it yearly or sometimes at 6k in my early days.

Cross fingers that the camshaft is well hardened and the follower surface quality good then they may stay in spec for years without needing a spanner on them. Quality oil and bringing the engine to temp before higher revs will help too.

[chipko]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

Quality oil and bringing the engine to temp before higher revs will help too.

Amen to that Fenlander. 5 mins warm up, and 10 mins or more trolling for mine without fail before piling on any revs. After that though it's worked hard.
Valve clearances have been checked on each service but all within tolerance so no adjustment necessary to date.

[Fenlander]

>>>Valve clearances have been checked on each service but all within tolerance so no adjustment necessary to date.

That's really good to know thanks.


>>> 5 mins warm up, and 10 mins or more trolling for mine without fail before piling on any revs.

By chance it happens both the place we launch nearest to home and where we holiday there are speed limits in the moorings area which gives a good discipline to running up to temperature with light engine loads before piling on the power in open water.

[jeffstevens763@g]

so wouldn't the software[PC printout] pick up that valve clearances were not at optimum then david?