The "auxilliary or not?" argument

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I’m not trying to talk anyone out of fitting an Aux, and never would. Just as I wouldn’t talk anyone out of wearing an LJ or carrying a vhf/PLB/flares etc. I may also have missed the language nuances. To be clear, are you saying it’s irresponsible not to have an Aux, or irresponsible to talk someone out of having one if they want one? The conversation seems to have been muddied by people stating that they were having to rescue “auxless” peeps, ergo not having an auxiliary was irresponsible.

Right, I'll try to clear this up once and for all.

Keep in mind the original thread context which my entire points are based on-

Talking someone out of buying an aux (which at least 2 people tried, perhaps inadvertently) when OP asked what size to buy etc and suggesting rely on sea star (which we know isn't available as the OP wanted to go "more offshore") or passers by is completely irresponsible and completely thoughtless on the other people out trying to enjoy themselves. (My negligence point was aimed squarely here)

Someone not having an aux for good reason (boat in company, won't fit, can't lift, physically can't start it etc) is fine with me, totally understandable. I've been there myself in past days and would have to rely on the anchor/vhf etc.

Someone not having one with the mindset of I don't think I'll need one (But could fit one) and chooses to boat alone it probably isn't a great idea long term but i realise most people learn from mistakes, I do anyway. But you may not have a boat (or worse) if you go this route, if you are content with those risks it is a free country but don't expect me to put my boat in danger to rescue yours and don't expect me to endanger mine or my families life to save yours, it is asking for trouble. That isn't saying I won't do it under certain circumstances but don't "expect" it.

Someone who runs out of fuel 3x (as cited above) has the same mindset IMO as people suggesting someone who wants an aux should rely on thumbing a lift and lets ruin some other poor strangers weekend need to have a serious word with themself. One day those passers by may not be there, consult Murphy's law.

Is it negligent not having an aux, no

Is it negligent talking someone out of it who wants one, bordering on it.

Lastly, my entire point spread across 8 pages- if you can fit an aux then it is a great investment, I guarantee you will wish you had it more than you didn't in your boating life.

[Lee argyle]

Durbus quote from today,

‘Is it negligent not having an aux, no

Is it negligent talking someone out of it who wants one, bordering on it.’

However earlier on, same thread

‘As I said before, it is definitely a Solent thing this don't bother with an aux, relying on passing boats that will tow you in is bordering on negligent and if you are on beach before sea start reach you then you will have wanted that aux, different strokes for different folks.

Going to sea and relying on others is bordering on negligence, if my main engine and aux break down then at least when the RNLI arrive I don't feel a complete twerp, looks like your library is different right enough....

Back on topic indeed....relying on Others is a mugs game and you will NEVER justify it, you are kidding yourself on. I towed a boat in twice last year that maintenance wouldn't have helped. Entire fuse box kaput on a yam 150 4 stroke.’

There is zero and I mean zero good excuses not to have an aux if it is a viable option imo (some boats are too big, literally no where to put them etc). Saying otherwise is akin to not advocating use of life jackets.

Ergo, suggesting not fitting an aux is akin to suggesting don't wear a life jacket, a kill cord or whatever other safety device you care to mention. An aux, life vest, anchor, flares etc are ALL safety items and if you have the option to use/fit them then it would be wise to do so.’


The complete tread is there for everyone to read so you get the full context of durbus words and responses, could he have worded his earlier posts better? is there a slight change of tone and position? i’ll let you decide

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Lee argyle

<<<<<<<<<<
The complete tread is there for everyone to read so you get the full context of durbus words and responses, could he have worded his earlier posts better? is there a slight change of tone and position? i’ll let you decide>>>>>>>>>

My take would be you're the one backing off your stance of rubbishing the value of an AUX and, looking at the number of RNLI call outs for engine failure, I think someone with a 350hp aux is maybe seeing the hypocrisy of their argument.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Lee argyle

Durbus quote from today,

‘Is it negligent not having an aux, no

Is it negligent talking someone out of it who wants one, bordering on it.’

However earlier on, same thread

‘As I said before, it is definitely a Solent thing this don't bother with an aux, relying on passing boats that will tow you in is bordering on negligent and if you are on beach before sea start reach you then you will have wanted that aux, different strokes for different folks.

Going to sea and relying on others is bordering on negligence, if my main engine and aux break down then at least when the RNLI arrive I don't feel a complete twerp, looks like your library is different right enough....

Back on topic indeed....relying on Others is a mugs game and you will NEVER justify it, you are kidding yourself on. I towed a boat in twice last year that maintenance wouldn't have helped. Entire fuse box kaput on a yam 150 4 stroke.’

There is zero and I mean zero good excuses not to have an aux if it is a viable option imo (some boats are too big, literally no where to put them etc). Saying otherwise is akin to not advocating use of life jackets.

Ergo, suggesting not fitting an aux is akin to suggesting don't wear a life jacket, a kill cord or whatever other safety device you care to mention. An aux, life vest, anchor, flares etc are ALL safety items and if you have the option to use/fit them then it would be wise to do so.’


The complete tread is there for everyone to read so you get the full context of durbus words and responses, could he have worded his earlier posts better? is there a slight change of tone and position? i’ll let you decide

So after all that ...what IS General Consensus Chaps..?

If you think you need one...and find you do...you'll be glad you got one?...if you got one and don't ever use it you may wish you never paid for one?...if you have room for one and don't bother to fit one you may never know till you may need it?...and if you don't have the room to fit one it don't matter either way?...then if you got one and find you can't start it (keep it checked and maintained)...it is (and the separate fuel tank) extra weight and just a trip hazard on all outings?

On thing you CAN count on...When the Shit really hits... Still the Best and most important bit of safety kit is ..and always has been a proper Anchor-Chain-and Warp set up

[Lee argyle]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

My take would be you're the one backing off your stance of rubbishing the value of an AUX and, looking at the number of RNLI call outs for engine failure, I think someone with a 350hp aux is maybe seeing the hypocrisy of their argument.

Like I’ve already said


‘But your wasting your breath, certain individuals on here are so fixated on aux’s that anyone not running one is obviously the devil reincarnated lol

Welcome PD to the ‘boarding negligent and very irresponsible club’, I’ve been a member for years ‘

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Maximus

So after all that ...what IS General Consensus Chaps..?

If you think you need one...and find you do...you'll be glad you got one?...if you got one and don't ever use it you may wish you never paid for one?...if you have room for one and don't bother to fit one you may never know till you may need it?...and if you don't have the room to fit one it don't matter either way?...then if you got one and find you can't start it (keep it checked and maintained)...it is (and the separate fuel tank) extra weight and just a trip hazard on all outings?

On thing you CAN count on...When the Shit really hits... Still the Best and most important bit of safety kit is ..and always has been a proper Anchor-Chain-and Warp set up

Ultimately for all of us the final "last gasp" backstop is the RNLI. So if any "pay for service" is only going to cover us for the first and last 6 minutes of the day, I sincerely hope we've all logged onto the RNLI's web site and set up our subscriptions to them......

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

.....I sincerely hope we've all logged onto the RNLI's web site and set up our subscriptions to them......

Been an offshore member for over 10 years[emoji106] I still put a couple of quid in the box if I’m passing. I’ve given bits and bobs away on Ribnet in exchange for a donation to the cause. Never had to call on them & fingers crossed I never will.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Lee argyle

Welcome PD to the ‘boarding negligent and very irresponsible club’, I’ve been a member for years ‘

I’m actually on the fence to some extent. I can see the benefits in certain situations, but I’m not convinced that they are the panacea that some would have us believe. They are another tool in the get you out of the brown stuff armoury, but they ain’t a silver bullet. If I had the room, I’d consider fitting one, but I don’t worry that I haven’t got one.

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Lee argyle

<<<<
Welcome PD to the ‘boarding negligent and very irresponsible club’, I’ve been a member for years>>>> ‘

But plainly now, with a 350hp AUX, you've seen the error of your ways.

As said, the argument was about talking the OP out of buying an AUX...

That's not good advice.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Maximus

On thing you CAN count on...When the Shit really hits... Still the Best and most important bit of safety kit is ..and always has been a proper Anchor-Chain-and Warp set up

Common sense at last

For those that are blah, blah, blah about being blown onto a rocky lee shore etc ....... in anything other than a clam sea they would be better off using their aux as an anchor ...........

It is NOT just a solent thing ........... I would estimate that less than 10% of the boats going out of our local harbour in Lyme Bay are fitted with an aux, Those that have an aux generally are using an older 2 stroke as the main engine.

Anchor is more important .............. In lymebay I would struggle to find more than 180ft of water (generally 60 - 100 ft up to 20 miles out) ...... 5kg Bruce and 220m of warp and then call one of other boats in the fanily or one of my mates to tow me in .......... if the sea kicked up then I would not hesitate to call the big orange tug ..........

Before you ask ......... yes, I have responded to radio requests for help and towed boats in ........ earlier this year I towed the dive RIB in when their gearbox siezed (ETEC ).

[Lee argyle]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

But plainly now, with a 350hp AUX, you've seen the error of your ways.

As said, the argument was about talking the OP out of buying an AUX...

That's not good advice.

Twins, triples, quads etc all share the same fuel berth, so do they classify as a true aux? a aux should be independent in all aspects should it not?

My other craft/s, you haven’t a clue what I’ve run in the past nor what I use today apart from my RIB, so what error of my ways have I seen? your very quick to come to conclusions with limited info

[Lee argyle]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

Common sense at last

For those that are blah, blah, blah about being blown onto a rocky lee shore etc ....... in anything other than a clam sea they would be better off using their aux as an anchor ...........

It is NOT just a solent thing ........... I would estimate that less than 10% of the boats going out of our local harbour in Lyme Bay are fitted with an aux, Those that have an aux generally are using an older 2 stroke as the main engine.

Anchor is more important .............. In lymebay I would struggle to find more than 180ft of water (generally 60 - 100 ft up to 20 miles out) ...... 5kg Bruce and 220m of warp and then call one of other boats in the fanily or one of my mates to tow me in .......... if the sea kicked up then I would not hesitate to call the big orange tug ..........

Before you ask ......... yes, I have responded to radio requests for help and towed boats in ........ earlier this year I towed the dive RIB in when their gearbox siezed (ETEC ).

+1

Wise words, but I fear your going to put a couple of noses out
Oh, welcome to the naughty club lol

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

Common sense at last

For those that are blah, blah, blah about being blown onto a rocky lee shore etc ....... in anything other than a clam sea they would be better off using their aux as an anchor ...........

Why.

Even in poor conditions. You can get the AUX started as quickly as you can deploy the anchor. You'll still make 2 or 3kn away from the danger, find somewhere safe, to anchor and then try to resolve the problem.

Why would you want to hang around there in the hope the anchor doesn't drag. I've been there, with the bathing platform ending up that close to the rocks a braver and fitter man than me could have jumped onto them. I got the engine restarted and then had the problem of getting the dragging anchor back in without "loosing ground" to get the boat out of there single handed.

Two things put me in that situation, a design fault in the engine's distributer cap (resolved in later models) and not having an AUX.

You're absolutely right, they're not a panacea but they're not nearly as inept in adverse conditions as is being implied. I "ran in" my 6hp in by doing a 10mile trip with it and I've tried a few experiments in poor conditions and trust me....they're a lot better than nothing.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

Why.

Even in poor conditions. You can get the AUX started as quickly as you can deploy the anchor. You'll still make 2 or 3kn away from the danger, find somewhere safe, to anchor and then try to resolve the problem.

Why would you want to hang around there in the hope the anchor doesn't drag. I've been there, with the bathing platform ending up that close to the rocks a braver and fitter man than me could have jumped onto them. I got the engine restarted and then had the problem of getting the dragging anchor back in without "loosing ground" to get the boat out of there single handed.

Two things put me in that situation, a design fault in the engine's distributer cap (resolved in later models) and not having an AUX.

You're absolutely right, they're not a panacea but they're not nearly as inept in adverse conditions as is being implied. I "ran in" my 6hp in by doing a 10mile trip with it and I've tried a few experiments in poor conditions and trust me....they're a lot better than nothing.

Why??....
You get stuck with no power at dead stop for any reason in ROUGH sea's on a Lee shore and you'll SOON get educated!......depending on 6 horses in a Big RIB simply won't cut it ...in ROUGH conditions.

An aux is for some is a nice handy edition....and can on occasion save a call out or a long wait.... for others it's simply a comfort blanket,but DO NOT bank on one saving you're arse in a "REAL"Jam ...it defiantly won't out perform an Anchor when ITS FOR REAL"!
Your "poor conditions" must be a WORLD away from mine!...if it's ROUGH you don't go anywhere near the shore except to get in!..as for jumping from the RIB onto Rocks?!!..
..well I suppose that says it all

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

Why.

Even in poor conditions. You can get the AUX started as quickly as you can deploy the anchor. You'll still make 2 or 3kn away from the danger, find somewhere safe, to anchor and then try to resolve the problem.

Why would you want to hang around there in the hope the anchor doesn't drag. I've been there, with the bathing platform ending up that close to the rocks a braver and fitter man than me could have jumped onto them. I got the engine restarted and then had the problem of getting the dragging anchor back in without "loosing ground" to get the boat out of there single handed.

Two things put me in that situation, a design fault in the engine's distributer cap (resolved in later models) and not having an AUX.

You're absolutely right, they're not a panacea but they're not nearly as inept in adverse conditions as is being implied. I "ran in" my 6hp in by doing a 10mile trip with it and I've tried a few experiments in poor conditions and trust me....they're a lot better than nothing.

You won't convince anyone with any argument that doesnt want to hear it or chooses to completely ignore the context of what the original thread poster was being told.

I'm not changing my stance or tone, some form of aux is a good idea for any boat...PERIOD. Talking someone out of buying one and relying on a passer by isn't....PERIOD.

Over and out on this one, people can make up their own mind if they are or are not a good idea for their boating needs.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

Why.

Even in poor conditions. You can get the AUX started as quickly as you can deploy the anchor. You'll still make 2 or 3kn away from the danger, find somewhere safe, to anchor and then try to resolve the problem.

Why would you want to hang around there in the hope the anchor doesn't drag. I've been there, with the bathing platform ending up that close to the rocks a braver and fitter man than me could have jumped onto them. I got the engine restarted and then had the problem of getting the dragging anchor back in without "loosing ground" to get the boat out of there single handed.

Two things put me in that situation, a design fault in the engine's distributer cap (resolved in later models) and not having an AUX.

You're absolutely right, they're not a panacea but they're not nearly as inept in adverse conditions as is being implied. I "ran in" my 6hp in by doing a 10mile trip with it and I've tried a few experiments in poor conditions and trust me....they're a lot better than nothing.

Dragging anchor is usually either lack of warp or not enough chain or an unsuitable anchor ....... I carry a 5kg bruce, a rebar fishermans, chain that is 2m longer than the boat, and 220m of warp

But ...... how many times do you hear a call on the VHF for assistance and the coastguard usually replies with 'can you anchor' , which is often replied with 'no, I dont have an anchor / enough warp' .......... you wouldnt drive a car without a handbrake !

I do about 100 - 150 engine hours a year and honestly dont feel the need for an aux. However, on the south west coast we do not have the remoteness of the guys up in jockshire.

To be fair, when I take the offshore 25 out to the 50 mile wrecks it has twin Suzuki 140's .......... that is called 'built in redundancy' and vastly different to placing your life in the hands of a sewing machine on the transom.

Generally, a lot of breakdowns at sea are fuel related and quite a lot of boaters run their aux from the same tank .............. Installations are much better these days ...... water separator - prefilter - engine filter. Running out of fuel is complete negligence...........

Onwards and upwards

[willk]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

they're not a Panacea

They're just not the same are they? I can't get nice Italian bread anywhere over here...

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by willk

They're just not the same are they? I can't get nice Italian bread anywhere over here...

I think you’re confusing that with a terracotta

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by willk

They're just not the same are they? I can't get nice Italian bread anywhere over here...

You could try a panini, it makes more sense than this fkin thread! I'm invoking Pikey Dave's number 2 rule.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by willk

They're just not the same are they? I can't get nice Italian bread anywhere over here...

Git ....... that made me hungry and I have now demolished a Panino imbottito .......mozzarella cheese and ham, with plum tomato, and yellow peppers .......